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  #161  
Old 19.07.2011, 15:34
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Where are you going with this? I'm intrigued. You've basically only shown that whatever you believe has as much worth as the most stupid and ignorant ideas because that is the only way you can level the playing field.
No I'm not. I'm just showing that belief is central to any system and those that refute that simple fact are in denial. Atheism is essentially a belief system even if it may hurt to hear that. You're living the same delusion as everybody else and are unable to see even the faint shimmer of a possibility that it may be so.

If you would accept that, we could move on to the next step which is separation of Church and State. The State should not take sides in religious conflicts but accept that state decsions are taken by democractic majority which is not the same as finding the truth. The state therefore errs on the side of the majority. It is thus okay for the police to use forensic methods rather than voodoo rituals to identify a criminal. But that is because the majority approve of that way of doing things. Not because there is any objective proof that overrides the majority that automatically kicks in. Schools teach Physics and Chemistry because a democratic majority approve of that. They don't teach about spaghetti monsters because a democratic majority thinks that's ridiculous. Doctors can prescribe diluted water because a majority are okay with that. Muslims can wear headress on their drivers licences but they can't build minarets. Contradictory? Who says the majority has to be consistent or even intelligent? Ultimately the truth doesn't come into it. And I am grateful for that because for the truth to be an argument, somebody would have to determine what the truth is and that would open the door to absolutism.
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  #162  
Old 19.07.2011, 15:42
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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No I'm not. I'm just showing that belief is central to any system and those that refute that simple fact are in denial. Atheism is essentially a belief system even if it may hurt to hear that. You're living the same delusion as everybody else and are unable to see even the faint shimmer of a possibility that it may be so.
Where did you show that? Maybe in the most abstract way possible, and if it really gives you some comfort to think that, go for it. But you can't say not beliveing in something is a belief system. In your example, the possibilities for belief are endless, you could not belive in something and not even know it. How would that be a belief?
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  #163  
Old 19.07.2011, 15:49
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Where did you show that? Maybe in the most abstract way possible, and if it really gives you some comfort to think that, go for it. But you can't say not beliveing in something is a belief system. In your example, the possibilities for belief are endless, you could not belive in something and not even know it. How would that be a belief?
Atheism is just a religion in which God's seat is vacant, or maybe in which the seat itself is also absent.

A bus without a driver is still a bus. And it's also still a bus if you don't know where it's going and didn't buy a ticket. And it's still a bus if you say that you don't really need a ticket anyway and seeing there's no driver it's not actually going anywhere so who cares? Mathematically speaking, the empty set is still a set, and yes, you can list its elements or do anything to it that you can do with any other set.

Some atheists say atheism is a "non prophet religion". besides the witty pun, they are right.
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  #164  
Old 19.07.2011, 15:53
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Atheism is just a religion in which God's seat is vacant, or maybe in which the seat itself is also absent.

A bus without a driver is still a bus. And it's also still a bus if you don't know where it's going and didn't buy a ticket. And it's still a bus if you say that you don't really need a ticket anyway and seeing there's no driver it's not actually going anywhere so who cares? Mathematically speaking, the empty set is still a set, and yes, you can list its elements or do anything to it that you can do with any other set.

Some atheists say atheism is a "non prophet religion". besides the witty pun, they are right.
Is it still a bus if it's a boat?
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  #165  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:07
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Is it still a bus if it's a boat?
maybe you should explain your metaphor.
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  #166  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:07
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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maybe you should explain your metaphor.
Maybe you should explain yours.
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  #167  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:09
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Maybe you should explain yours.
Seeing you replied to it I guess you understood it.

Or does your keyboard have a life of its own?
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  #168  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:10
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

Sigh, tired, using the bus, you explained a system of transportation, but most of the things you said could still apply to a boat, so is a bus a boat?
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  #169  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:17
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Sigh, tired, using the bus, you explained a system of transportation, but most of the things you said could still apply to a boat, so is a bus a boat?
And what in your metaphoric model, would the difference between a bus and a boat be?

Metaphors only make sense as long as you agree what they stand for.

I think it was Karl Marx who said that you can build a dam across a river but you can't stop it flowing.
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  #170  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:23
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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And what in your metaphoric model, would the difference between a bus and a boat be?

Metaphors only make sense as long as you agree what they stand for.

I think it was Karl Marx who said that you can build a dam across a river but you can't stop it flowing.
I'm merely saying, that just because you (and only you) see some simililarites between atheism and a religion, doesn't mean it's a religion. Using a very loose definition, we can call anything where people get together for any reason, or even share an idea, a religion. Which is what you are doing.

What can you tell me about my religion? Because I know nothing about it, being as it is, a label for people who don't believe in gods.

I may as well ask christians why they only eat halal meat, or muslims as to why they take the sacrement, because they're all theists.
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  #171  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:24
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

You know what you two need? A colander on your heads.
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  #172  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:29
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

It's against my no hats belief.
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  #173  
Old 19.07.2011, 17:05
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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I'm merely saying, that just because you (and only you) see some simililarites between atheism and a religion, doesn't mean it's a religion. Using a very loose definition, we can call anything where people get together for any reason, or even share an idea, a religion. Which is what you are doing.

What can you tell me about my religion? Because I know nothing about it, being as it is, a label for people who don't believe in gods.
Not the only one, oh non-goat, Ok, I would say it was a religious belief rather than a religion.

Here is the UK census question 20 What is your religion? (This question is voluntary)
No religion
Christian (including Church of England, Catholic, Protestant and all
other Christian denominations)
Buddhist
Hindu
Jewish
Muslim
Sikh
Any other religion, write in


I think you are objecting to the term religion because you are assuming that it implies organised religion. We atheists are not / and should not be an organised group, but should be accorded the same rights / respects as any all other religions. i.e. we should be able to express our beliefs, and if one pasterfarian in Austria actually believes that he needs a colander on his head, he should be able to do that. We also should not be distriminated against because of our beliefs.
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  #174  
Old 19.07.2011, 17:16
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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I think you are objecting to the term religion because you are assuming that it implies organised religion. We atheists are not / and should not be an organised group, but should be accorded the same rights / respects as any all other religions. i.e. we should be able to express our beliefs, and if one pasterfarian in Austria actually believes that he needs a colander on his head, he should be able to do that. We also should not be distriminated against because of our beliefs.
I would say that really, it's the special priviliges for religions that shouldn't be allowed, that the rule of law should fit all, and punishment equaly. There's very little or no discrimination against atheists in law that I'm aware of, at least not here anyway. In fact, we probably pay less tax here.

EDIT: Also, although maybe organised religion may be bad, I'm just more bothered by the claims of divine authority.
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Old 19.07.2011, 18:07
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

Not in law in Switzerland, as far as I know, but I don't live there yet.

But some little things.....

When I was a kid you could substitute God for other gods in the guides/scouts oath, but would couldn't leave it out, and if you didn't take the oath you couldn't join.

Are you allowed to take the pledge of allegiance in the US taking out the god bits?

Oh, let all believe what they want. We'll have the last laugh..... except we won't because we'll be dead and there is no after life.
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Old 19.07.2011, 18:31
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Not in law in Switzerland, as far as I know, but I don't live there yet.

But some little things.....

When I was a kid you could substitute God for other gods in the guides/scouts oath, but would couldn't leave it out, and if you didn't take the oath you couldn't join.
When you're swearing by a god, all you are doing is calling on that god to be a witness to your oath and inviting him to punish you if you default. So if you swear by a god who doesn't exist, then surely your oath is meaningless so you have nothing to fear. Unless maybe he does exist after all and furthermore doesn't have a particularly subtle sense of humour?
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Old 19.07.2011, 18:35
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

Ahhhh, but it doesn't mean anything does it. So if it means the same if I say it or if I don't why can't I not?

Brownies/Cub Scouts:
With the help of God, I promise to do my best.To help other people, to make a good turn everydayTo keep the Brownie/Cub Scout Law. Guides/Boy Scouts:
On my honour, I promise to do my best,To do my duty to God and to my country,To help other people at all timesAnd to keep the Guide/Scout Law.


And, as you can see, you are not just promising to god, you are promising to do to god.

Last edited by MsWorWoo; 19.07.2011 at 18:37. Reason: adding detail
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Old 19.07.2011, 18:38
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Oh, let all believe what they want. We'll have the last laugh..... except we won't because we'll be dead and there is no after life.
It's debatable Under the establishment clause. So far it has been held that the words are of " ceremonial and patriotic nature" on a 2-1 ruling on 2010. the under god thing is 50 years old. you can however, opt out of the whole thing.
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  #179  
Old 19.07.2011, 18:39
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

Like I say, when I was a kid. I had the vague feeling that they stopped discriminating against atheists.......
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  #180  
Old 19.07.2011, 19:00
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Ahhhh, but it doesn't mean anything does it. So if it means the same if I say it or if I don't why can't I not?
I think the 11th Amendment or something like that covered that topic.

Anyway, you can't be forced to take such an oath.
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