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  #181  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:22
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Re: Forgiveness

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I suppose eating is one of life's great pleasures and offering something special prior to execution is a sprinkling of humanity on a cold black act.
I see it as a slap in the face, a reminder of the life that is going to be taken away from the condemned. So final and morbid.
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  #182  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:25
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Re: Forgiveness

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Here is an interesting art project on the subject of last meals.
Is it just me or does picture number 8 look like LIB's last meal???
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  #183  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:27
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Re: Forgiveness

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Yes it is, if that person is, to put it bluntly, a bloody nutter.

Some people are simply not responsible for their actions, and it is sometimes necessary for the victim to forgive them for the sake of his own sanity and wellbeing.

(Speaking from grim experience here)
I wonder. Diminished responsibility with no recognition of transgression leads one to perhaps accept what has occured; hopefully forgive them because they're insane and move on, as that person is out of their wits. There's nothing to be gained from harbouring ill will to the insane. Would such forgiveness not be mere powerless acceptance that it's time to move on?

But is forgiveness possible if the 'sinner' maintains their stance against you, if they're not 'nutters'?
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  #184  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:29
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Re: Forgiveness

I reckon the Last Meal thing is about as good as "any last requests?"
"Yeah, hang someone else"
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  #185  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:30
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Re: Forgiveness

I think I would ask for a pint of Light and Bitter - it might take some time..............
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  #186  
Old 21.07.2011, 12:45
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Executed

Here the details

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/20/mark-stroman-executed_n_905292.html

and here some additional information about the victim

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_902137.html
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  #187  
Old 21.07.2011, 12:50
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Re: Executed

I just struggle to believe these people seriously. And it's a double fantasy that they can call themselves Christians. What happened to turning the other cheek, what happened to mercy and "vengeance is mine" sayeth the Lord. It really is embarrassing to be a member of such a primitive species.

Last edited by economisto; 21.07.2011 at 13:06.
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  #188  
Old 21.07.2011, 13:07
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Re: Forgiveness

At the heart of the matter, all religions can be reconciled.
I can’t call myself a Buddhist, but after reading a few Buddhist books and thanks to some amazing people that I have met I can’t now think of forgiveness in other way than Buddhist.
I believe that harbouring negative thoughts and feelings turns ultimately against us, creating bad karma. Expecting the other person to “atone” or to apologize makes our mind and heart unclear. The “perpetrator” has his own karma: the balance will be restored eventually.
Having said that, I admire Rhais Bhuiyan because not only did he create some good karma for himself, but he also fought for the heart and soul of a murderer. He didn’t prevent the execution but perhaps there is hope (in Buddhist terms) that Mark Stroman’s next life will be a better one.
True Christianity is not unlike Buddhism with its emphasis on love, mercy and accepting God's will, i.e. that the rain falls on the just and the unjust.
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  #189  
Old 21.07.2011, 13:18
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Re: Forgiveness

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True Christianity is not unlike Buddhism with its emphasis on love, mercy and accepting God's will, i.e. that the rain falls on the just and the unjust.
ah quotes...

I like this one:

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them

... I'm never making fun of slaphead, just in case...
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  #190  
Old 21.07.2011, 13:23
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Re: Forgiveness

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ah quotes...

I like this one:

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them
Not to divert this conversation too much but there's a difference between the actions of God (vengeful and not to be imitated), the actions of Catholics through the ages (not...good) and the life of Jesus (peace and love). Only the last is prescriptive and while we're only human and bound to fail it's twisted that some people kill in the name of Jesus.
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  #191  
Old 21.07.2011, 13:26
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Re: Forgiveness

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I believe that harbouring negative thoughts and feelings turns ultimately against us, creating bad karma. Expecting the other person to “atone” or to apologize makes our mind and heart unclear. The “perpetrator” has his own karma: the balance will be restored eventually.
Catholic teaching actually has something similar only they don't call it Karma.

It is taught that souls go to Purgatory before going to heaven and there their souls are cleansed of their wrongdoings and while that's happening they feel some of the suffering they caused to others for a certain time before being admitted to heaven. Suffering in purgatory can be reduced by the living praying for and forgiving them, and those who do so will in turn suffer less when their turn comes.
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  #192  
Old 21.07.2011, 13:27
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Re: Forgiveness

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Not to divert this conversation too much but there's a difference between the actions of God (vengeful and not to be imitated), the actions of Catholics through the ages (not...good) and the life of Jesus (peace and love). Only the last is prescriptive and while we're only human and bound to fail it's twisted that some people kill in the name of Jesus.
dude...
1) she bears eating kids... awesome.
2) ....If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell... not much love there......

we can discuss this over a bucket o'chicken
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  #193  
Old 21.07.2011, 13:51
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Re: Forgiveness

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Catholic teaching actually has something similar only they don't call it Karma.

It is taught that souls go to Purgatory before going to heaven and there their souls are cleansed of their wrongdoings and while that's happening they feel some of the suffering they caused to others for a certain time before being admitted to heaven. Suffering in purgatory can be reduced by the living praying for and forgiving them, and those who do so will in turn suffer less when their turn comes.
But what about unbaptized babies (or adults, for that matter)? Don't Catholics teach that that the unbaptized stay in purgatory forever, without reprieve? (disclaimer: I'm not catholic, nor have I studied all of their dogma, but that's something that has stuck with me, perhaps I'm wrong)
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  #194  
Old 21.07.2011, 14:03
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Re: Forgiveness

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But what about unbaptized babies (or adults, for that matter)? Don't Catholics teach that that the unbaptized stay in purgatory forever, without reprieve? (disclaimer: I'm not catholic, nor have I studied all of their dogma, but that's something that has stuck with me, perhaps I'm wrong)
Yes and no.

Unbaptised babies who are by definition without sin come to a special part of Purgatory (sometimes called Limbo, although the word means something else these days) where obviously they cannot be cleansed as they have no sins to be cleansed of, but where they sort of wait in peace as they cannot be admitted to Heaven. I think one of the main differences to being in real Heaven is that they cannot petition or intervene for other people's souls. Different theologists differ in their interpretatiion of whether they will eventually be released from Limbo or not and AFAIK there is no official teaching going into that.

Unbaptised adults do have sin so they can't come there immediately but they end up there once their sins are cleansed.
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  #195  
Old 21.07.2011, 15:19
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Re: Forgiveness

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Yes and no.

Unbaptised babies who are by definition without sin come to a special part of Purgatory (sometimes called Limbo, although the word means something else these days) where obviously they cannot be cleansed as they have no sins to be cleansed of, but where they sort of wait in peace as they cannot be admitted to Heaven. I think one of the main differences to being in real Heaven is that they cannot petition or intervene for other people's souls. Different theologists differ in their interpretatiion of whether they will eventually be released from Limbo or not and AFAIK there is no official teaching going into that.

Unbaptised adults do have sin so they can't come there immediately but they end up there once their sins are cleansed.
As a teenager in the process of losing a baby pregnant at 6 months with an IUD in situ, I would go to hospital and they would stick an IV in and try to stop the contractions. At that time they could not save babies that young.
An Irish catholic female nurse would regularly come to me and tell me that I had to have the baby baptized other wise it would be in Limbo. She had seen agnostic on my papers.

At that time my first thought about her was to tell her forgive them Lord for they know not what they do, but later realized that you can't forgive those who don't think they are guilty. So I just tried to ignore her, she was pretty relentless. There are lost of sanctimonious people who enjoy owning the supposed power to forgive, they use (or withhold it) it like a magic wand to control others.
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  #196  
Old 21.07.2011, 15:38
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Re: Forgiveness

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If you truly want to forgive, then forgiveness should be unconditional. Else you are simply judging that person again.
I think my love is unconditional- at least I try to remind myself that it should be.
I believe in the inherent goodness of mankind and give love because it is what I was born to do, I can love someone yet still know that they are guilty of certain things.

But forgiveness is a process of understanding between people, it is conditional upon circumstances and the perspective of those who are willing to engage.
It should be serious process and not be treated flippantly as it forms the basis of how we judge morality.
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  #197  
Old 21.07.2011, 15:51
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Re: Forgiveness

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I think my love is unconditional- at least I try to remind myself that it should be.
I believe in the inherent goodness of mankind and give love because it is what I was born to do, I can love someone yet still know that they are guilty of certain things.

But forgiveness is a process of understanding between people, it is conditional upon circumstances and the perspective of those who are willing to engage.
It should be serious process and not be treated flippantly as it forms the basis of how we judge morality.
I do not feel that you need to engage with someone to forgive them... Again I feel forgiveness is unconditional, trying to understand wrongdoings against you or anyone is simply imposing pre-conditions within your thought process.

Now that my parents are gone, I have forgiven them for all that I perceived they did wrong. I did not seek to understand why they did certain things. I tried to, but it just kept me in limbo and held me back from seeing all the good they did.
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  #198  
Old 21.07.2011, 16:00
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Re: Forgiveness

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I do not feel that you need to engage with someone to forgive them... Again I feel forgiveness is unconditional, trying to understand wrongdoings against you or anyone is simply imposing pre-conditions within your thought process.

Now that my parents are gone, I have forgiven them for all that I perceived they did wrong. I did not seek to understand why they did certain things. I tried to, but it just kept me in limbo and held me back from seeing all the good they did.
So you could unconditionally forgive a mass murderer or a paedophile, who are not ignorant of the pain their acts inflict and continue to commit those acts?

Your parents are dead- they can not get to you anymore, if they were still alive and continued in their offensive behaviour (whatever that was) would you feel differently?
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  #199  
Old 21.07.2011, 16:05
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Re: Forgiveness

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So you could unconditionally forgive a mass murderer or a paedophile, who are not ignorant of the pain their acts inflict and continue to commit those acts?
Of course I would, over time.

As I said before, why waste time time on hate, or other needless negative thoughts - where would it get me, what good would it do me ? My mind is my castle, I defend it well. I am very fussy about what goes on in my head.
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  #200  
Old 21.07.2011, 16:07
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Re: Forgiveness

Time to lighten things up!

Eddie Izzard-People who apologize have strong personalities!

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