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  #201  
Old 21.07.2011, 16:23
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Re: Forgiveness

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So you could unconditionally forgive a mass murderer or a paedophile, who are not ignorant of the pain their acts inflict and continue to commit those acts?
The greatest acts of forgeiveness concern the people who are most difficult to forgive.

It doesn't take a strong act of generosity to forgive a fluffy kitten.

If you attach conditions to your forgiveness then it is no longer true forgiveness because you are not giving it freely but selling it for a price.
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  #202  
Old 21.07.2011, 17:05
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Re: Forgiveness

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Of course I would, over time.

As I said before, why waste time time on hate, or other needless negative thoughts - where would it get me, what good would it do me ? My mind is my castle, I defend it well. I am very fussy about what goes on in my head.
But that's pretty selfish isn't it? You only forgive because it benefits you? that seems to me to be the modern thing- just forgive and forget then you can have closure. In reality it solves nothing just creates a kind of amnesia, a brick wall, there is no admittance of the injustice that was done, which is the point that Alice Miller preaches and I tend to agree.

Sometimes people just need to acknowledge that they have been wronged and for the pain that it caused to be recognized. We are not obligated to honour a father or mother who did not parent as they should have. We admit that they were wrong and that we will not perpetuate their patterns of parenting. Who we get as parents is a bit of a crap shot at times- we don't choose them! Once you have recognized that they cannot hurt you anymore and that what they did was wrong then you don't need to keep your mind in a castle.
I went through this for years with my parents, I was at the tale end of their offspring and was more or less abandoned after years of all types of abuse. My elder siblings did not receive the same parenting and insisted that I should forgive. I never did forget not forgive certain parts; there was no excuse, my parents were not uneducated or poor, they were employed in mental health and social services. Yet I still recognize and value the positive things they gave me.

Eventually after years of discussion most of my siblings accept that certain things could not be forgiven. My parent would never ask for forgiveness as they would then have to acknowledge that what they did was wrong. They could never admit guilt. They just developed an amnesia block, pretended that it never happened.

If I was to forgive them without any reasoning of right or wrong, then, in turn, I should expect my children to forgive me if I abused them- is that riight? Just forgive and forget-no need for explanation, discussion or retribution.

I may not forgive certain people-but I love and live and life is short. I actively work against committing immoral acts ( both my own and others) and believe strongly believe in the need for a system of justice.

Quote:
Concerning Foregiveness: The Liberating Experience of Painful Truth


http://www.alice-miller.com/articles...&nid=48&grp=11

Last edited by hoppy; 21.07.2011 at 17:18.
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  #203  
Old 21.07.2011, 17:21
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Re: Forgiveness

...and just who else does my forgiveness benefit ? That is not selfish. Nothing like selfish. I think you should at least try and practice it, before you condemn it.

It might also benefit you to focus on some concepts practiced by Buddhists, read up on the reason behind forgiveness and the global communal benefits. Forgiving people are happy people. Those that can't forgive are worried trouble people. Choose who you want to be. People who choose not to forgive draw upon dark feelings to justify the same dark feelings. It is self perpetuating and damaging. Forgiveness takes practice, and it gets a lot easier. The reasons become clearer. Forgive, forget, move on. History cannot be changed, only the way you see it and what you learn from it to go into tomorrow.

What is in your head is your own responsibility, how you feel is your your own making. Forgiving is taking control of your emotion and well being. It is the rational processing of emotion and ultimately a logical exit from inner turmoil. What has happened cannot be changed, accept that and move on. Brooding just makes it worse.

Some literature takes the position that having these feelings from horrible past events is healthy and should be encouraged. They go as far as to say "It is OK to feel like this". It isn't. Our natural state is one of happiness, these feelings should be dealt with , drawn out and dismissed. Our mind should be trained to recognise ill feeling immediately and dispel it. Forgiveness is part of that process. Instant , unconditional forgiveness pre-empts all these ills of the mind. Train to think in terms of forgiveness, with compassion and understanding, without ever asking "Why me ?" "Why did this happen ?" and you gain and grow spiritually and mentally.

Wanting to grow, to benefit, to move on and to become worry free is not selfish.

Happiness is our natural state, to get back to that state, remove all that makes you unhappy.

http://thehappymindbook.com/4496


...and from the link you posted...

" Only when you have forgiven your parents for everything they did to you can you get well. Even if both parents were alcoholics, even if they mistreated, confused, exploited, beat, and totally overloaded you, you must forgive them everything. Otherwise, your illness will not be cured."

Last edited by Upthehatters2008; 21.07.2011 at 17:45.
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  #204  
Old 21.07.2011, 18:04
hoppy
 
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Re: Forgiveness

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...and just who else does my forgiveness benefit ? That is not selfish. Nothing like selfish. I think you should at least try and practice it, before you condemn it.

It might also benefit you to focus on some concepts practiced by Buddhists, read up on the reason behind forgiveness and the global communal benefits. Forgiving people are happy people. Those that can't forgive are worried trouble people. Choose who you want to be. People who choose not to forgive draw upon dark feelings to justify the same dark feelings. It is self perpetuating and damaging. Forgiveness takes practice, and it gets a lot easier. The reasons become clearer. Forgive, forget, move on. History cannot be changed, only the way you see it and what you learn from it to go into tomorrow.

What is in your head is your own responsibility, how you feel is your your own making. Forgiving is taking control of your emotion and well being. It is the rational processing of emotion and ultimately a logical exit from inner turmoil. What has happened cannot be changed, accept that and move on. Brooding just makes it worse.

Some literature takes the position that having these feelings from horrible past events is healthy and should be encouraged. They go as far as to say "It is OK to feel like this". It isn't. Our natural state is one of happiness, these feelings should be dealt with , drawn out and dismissed. Our mind should be trained to recognise ill feeling immediately and dispel it. Forgiveness is part of that process.
I am very happy! I wasn't for years until I finally accepted that I did not have to forgive reprehensible acts. I tried for years to forgive I was under a lot of pressure to forgive, to reason it out. Then I gave it up, just faced the fact that I had crap parents, and hey presto the cloud lifted. It was such a feeling of achievement and satisfaction, so freeing. No guilt, no stain, just a new awareness that even the most upright people can commit immoral acts.

My children know everything about my childhood, I am very open about. I learned through this, why should I not pass that learning on to them? I don't hide it away, I haven't forgotten it- it is part of who I am, I can't undo it. I was not the guilty one- my parents were yet I forgave my parents continually as a child and they carried on abusing Children are so trusting and forgiving.

It is possible to love, trust and be, without forgiving and forgetting. It is a fallacy that you can't-I am living proof. I can also tell you that I am glad my parents are dead, some say that's heresay- I say it's honesty. I have been much happier since they were dead. Grandparents have rights, thank goodness they never got to my kids. Some are probably thinking what a terrible thing to say. You may say that you forgive me for saying I'm glad my parents are dead ( passed?) and that may make you feel better to forgive me but I truly wouldn't care if you forgave me or not. I am still really happy that they are dead. In fact the more I think about it the happier I am. But if you believe that forgiving makes a problem go away- it doesn't, not even in your own head.




Why not try reading the article?
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  #205  
Old 21.07.2011, 18:09
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Re: Forgiveness

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Why not try reading the article?


I did, did you ?

From the link you posted...

"Only when you have forgiven your parents for everything they did to you can you get well. Even if both parents were alcoholics, even if they mistreated, confused, exploited, beat, and totally overloaded you, you must forgive them everything. Otherwise, your illness will not be cured."
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  #206  
Old 21.07.2011, 18:24
hoppy
 
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Re: Forgiveness

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...and just who else does my forgiveness benefit ? That is not selfish. Nothing like selfish. I think you should at least try and practice it, before you condemn it.

It might also benefit you to focus on some concepts practiced by Buddhists, read up on the reason behind forgiveness and the global communal benefits. Forgiving people are happy people. Those that can't forgive are worried trouble people. Choose who you want to be. People who choose not to forgive draw upon dark feelings to justify the same dark feelings. It is self perpetuating and damaging. Forgiveness takes practice, and it gets a lot easier. The reasons become clearer. Forgive, forget, move on. History cannot be changed, only the way you see it and what you learn from it to go into tomorrow.

What is in your head is your own responsibility, how you feel is your your own making. Forgiving is taking control of your emotion and well being. It is the rational processing of emotion and ultimately a logical exit from inner turmoil. What has happened cannot be changed, accept that and move on. Brooding just makes it worse.

Some literature takes the position that having these feelings from horrible past events is healthy and should be encouraged. They go as far as to say "It is OK to feel like this". It isn't. Our natural state is one of happiness, these feelings should be dealt with , drawn out and dismissed. Our mind should be trained to recognise ill feeling immediately and dispel it. Forgiveness is part of that process. Instant , unconditional forgiveness pre-empts all these ills of the mind. Train to think in terms of forgiveness, with compassion and understanding, without ever asking "Why me ?" "Why did this happen ?" and you gain and grow spiritually and mentally.

Wanting to grow, to benefit, to move on and to become worry free is not selfish.

Happiness is our natural state, to get back to that state, remove all that makes you unhappy.

http://thehappymindbook.com/4496


...and from the link you posted...

" Only when you have forgiven your parents for everything they did to you can you get well. Even if both parents were alcoholics, even if they mistreated, confused, exploited, beat, and totally overloaded you, you must forgive them everything. Otherwise, your illness will not be cured."
ps you misread/ misunderstood the article.

Here it is in context, I know you appreciate bold text (which I kind of think of as shoving something down someone else throat)so here it is:

In those by-now familiar groups in which addicts and their relations go into therapy together, the following belief is invariably expressed. Only when you have forgiven your parents for everything they did to you can you get well. Even if both parents were alcoholics, even if they mistreated, confused, exploited, beat, and totally overloaded you, you must forgive them everything. Otherwise, your illness will not be cured. There are many programs going by the name of "therapy", whose basis consists of first learning to express one's feelings in order to see what happened in childhood. Then, however, comes "the work of forgiveness", which is apparently necessary if one is to heal. Many young people who have AIDS or are drug-addicted die in the wake of their effort to forgive so much. What they do not realize is that they are trying to keep the repression of their childhood intact.
Some therapists fear this truth. They work under the influence of various interpretations culled from both Western and Oriental religions, which preach forgiveness to the once-mistreated child. Thereby, they create a new vicious circle for people who, from their earliest years, have been caught in the vicious circle of pedagogy . This, they refer to as "therapy". In so doing, they lead them into a trap from which there is no escape, the same trap that once rendered their natural protests impossible, thus causing the illness in the first place. Because such therapists, caught as they are in the pedagogic system, cannot help patients to resolve the consequences of the traumatization they have suffered, they offer them traditional morality instead.


Also I would like to add that although I did not forgive my parents for certain things, it does not mean that I do not love them- I did and still do.

Anyway this is getting boring for others on the forum I think. The sun is shining and I have stuff to do.
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  #207  
Old 21.07.2011, 18:29
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Re: Forgiveness

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.
I read it, and in context. I extracted that quote because I believe it to be true. The author seeks to dismiss that fact. Where you are now, isn't a happy place, because you believe perhaps the teachings of this author. If , after all that you have read, and after all you have tried, isn't working, then it is time to change tactics. Seriously, it hasn't worked for you has it ? Ditch it.
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  #208  
Old 21.07.2011, 18:33
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Re: Forgiveness



Forgive And Forget, I say.






But keep a list of the names somewhere
safe, j-u-s-t in case.


Attachment 29920

Last edited by weejeem; 14.10.2011 at 15:03.
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