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  #21  
Old 20.07.2011, 08:45
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Re: Forgiveness

Don't suppose the opportunity of redemption is valued much? Or is that all a bit touchy feely New Testament..?
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  #22  
Old 20.07.2011, 08:56
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Re: Forgiveness

Mark Stroman was an idiot. There were several idiots in the days after 9/11 running about the US and attacking -- verbally and physically -- anyone they considered an Arab. Many of those idiots didn't even know what an Arab looked like. That hatred was thus directed to anyone who was brown. Including Mexicans (which is how the Mexican border became a hotbed of "the terrorists are coming! the terrorists are coming!!! Close the border now!!!).

Rais is a good man, showing the world that Islam is indeed a peaceful religion. Despite the offenses committed by Stroman after 9/11, he is forgiven for being an idiot. But it doesn't make him stop being an idiot.

And isn't giving someone death a lesser penalty than keeping them locked up and miserable for the rest of their lives?
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  #23  
Old 20.07.2011, 08:59
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Re: Forgiveness

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Test your theory on the little stuff. Forgive your Mum, your sister or your ex*, before you wonder if you can forgive a killer.

*I'm just giving examples here.
At first I was going to use a more minor example of forgiveness but I figured it wouldn't really be relevant to the topic in the thread.

I think everyone has a threshold for forgiveness - sure I can forgive my mum for making me wear half-mast brown corduroy trousers to a school disco and my sister for showing my classmates a picture of my 13 year old self in the bath (just!) but for the big, life-changing stuff? It's probably impossible to say if it's not happened but I am still sure everyone has a threshold for it.
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Old 20.07.2011, 09:07
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Re: Forgiveness

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The guy is a cold blooded killer so kill him. Simple really.
and don't even start with the 'he had a bad childhood, was left out in the rain, nobody loved him' crap. He is not the victim he is the killer.

If you kill, then expect to be killed.
I do NOT care about his childhood. That somebody who kills has to expect to get killed in revenge may be obvious. But the death penalty is wrong.

Cold blooded ? rather the contrary. Hate driven out of what had happened on 11-Sep-01. Not the only one in fact. And not the only one to attack Indians, regarding them as Arabs. But the culprit apparently not just regrets his action but also, in contact with the victim, shows some insight.

And not to execute him does not mean to release him.
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  #25  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:13
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Re: Forgiveness

I don't mean trivial little things that hurt our ego's, that's just our insecurities and sensitivities. I don't blame other people for me not being able to take a joke (again I'm just making a point, not meaning you).

To forgive someone means I must have found them guilty of something. It's hard to have all the facts to know exactly what leads someone to commit a crime, so how could I judge them?

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At first I was going to use a more minor example of forgiveness but I figured it wouldn't really be relevant to the topic in the thread.

I think everyone has a threshold for forgiveness - sure I can forgive my mum for making me wear half-mast brown corduroy trousers to a school disco and my sister for showing my classmates a picture of my 13 year old self in the bath (just!) but for the big, life-changing stuff? It's probably impossible to say if it's not happened but I am still sure everyone has a threshold for it.
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  #26  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:14
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Re: Forgiveness

"If this is what my purpose in life is, let's do it - rock on, saddle up it's rodeo time as we say in Texas."

I was onboard with forgiveness until he used a rodeo metaphor. Proceed as planned.
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  #27  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:23
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Re: Forgiveness

fry the bastard

i'm loving this british anti-death penalty, americans are so barbaric, slanted article which sort of glosses over the fact that this guy murdered in cold blood two other completely innocent people and focuses on a one-eyed-guy and his willingness to forgive. a life for two lives (and an eye) seems like a fair trade to me.
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  #28  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:29
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Re: Forgiveness

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I really hope your life keeps going as it is, that it doesn't all somehow change. That your family stay safe and that you never know the feeling of hate.
I am responsible for my actions. If I don't pay my taxes then I pay the consequences, if I kill someone in cold blood (murder) then I have to take the consequences - the rules of the game haven't changed. In some states in the US if you kill then you face the death penalty - wrongly or rightly, so what's to complain about?

If the guy had set off a bomb and killed 50 people or 150 people, what then? Would you be so quick to forgive?

Killing people is wrong and must be stopped, the only thing that sends a message to stop people doing it is the death penalty. If a guy on the street has no future anyway and his life is a hell, what good will locking him up for 20 years do?
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  #29  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:32
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Re: Forgiveness

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To forgive someone means I must have found them guilty of something. It's hard to have all the facts to know exactly what leads someone to commit a crime, so how could I judge them?
Judging?

Forgiving..?

In principle, yes...

Accepting the person.

Forgetting is another matter altogether.
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  #30  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:33
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Re: Forgiveness

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I hate sanctimonious b@stards, who preach forgiveness and 'closure'.- To err is human to forgive is divine....

Firstly, what right do you have to forgive a person who you may feel is guilty of something but others do not?

Secondly, you can't really forgive a person unless they seek forgiveness, otherwise they have no understanding/ admission of what they have done.

I think that forgiveness is a mutual understanding; you can gain as much from forgiving a person as a person can gain from being forgiven.

When there is no mutual agreement the only thing you can do is to try to ensure that it does not happen in future, try not to get bitter about it or demean yourself in acts of revenge.

I am a highly vindictive person, but I don't believe in the death penalty. Thou shalt not kill.
You may want forgiveness/to be forgiven yourself one day. Try banking some Karma today for a rainy day.

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  #31  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:36
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Re: Forgiveness

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fry the bastard

i'm loving this british anti-death penalty, americans are so barbaric, slanted article which sort of glosses over the fact that this guy murdered in cold blood two other completely innocent people and focuses on a one-eyed-guy and his willingness to forgive. a life for two lives (and an eye) seems like a fair trade to me.
Not all the British are anti-death penalty it's just that not many British have been caught up in a gun crime. I was caught up in an armed robbery in the UK and the fear for everybody involved cannot be imagined. Nobody has the right to put somebody else through that - or worse.

Sit the guy in a wooden chair and put it on top of a bonfire. Don't look back. Maybe other people would think twice then before pulling a gun on somebody.
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  #32  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:38
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Re: Forgiveness

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You may want forgiveness/to be forgiven yourself one day. Try banking some Karma today for a rainy day.
yeah i'll be sure to save some up for the day i go on a racist shooting spree.
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  #33  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:38
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Re: Forgiveness

Who was it that said, give a man a gun and he kills someone , thats murder. Give a man a uniform and a gun and he kills someone, thats a hero?
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  #34  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:40
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Re: Forgiveness

Could you press the button yourself?

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  #35  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:41
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Re: Forgiveness

From The Merchant of Venice, first performed in 1596 and published in 1600, when Portia speaks to Shylock in Act IV, Scene I.


The Quality of Mercy


The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
But mercy is above this sceptered sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show like God's
When mercy seasons justice.
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  #36  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:41
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Re: Forgiveness

I've not much to add, but: one of the victims forgave the culprit. Great. All the foregiveness in the world won't undo the crime, so I see no reason why it should undo the punishment. Light up the ol' barbecue.

Edit rather than popping open another post: To answer DB, yes, I don't see a problem with flipping the switch myself.
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  #37  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:42
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Re: Forgiveness

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From The Merchant of Venice, first performed in 1596 and published in 1600, when Portia speaks to Shylock in Act IV, Scene I.


The Quality of Mercy


The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
But mercy is above this sceptered sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show like God's
When mercy seasons justice.
excuse me while i go vomit
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  #38  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:43
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Re: Forgiveness

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Could you press the button yourself?

Yes is the short answer. If I knew that individual had committed a serious crime such as genocide, murder etc.
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  #39  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:44
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Re: Forgiveness

Forgiveness is a great tool for your own mental health and stability. In my case it took quite a time of life long learning to realise this. And I completely mean this in a non-religious way.

There is no point in taking along hateful moments or feelings or a grudge over a long time in one's life. The only thing it does is intoxicate the current life and keeps one from enjoying the moment resp. planning a nice future. The past is gone, so just leave it there.

* * *

In the given example it's one thing to forgive on a personal level, a capital crime is taken care on a governmental level and is possibly not forgiven.

I'm not in favour of death penalties, but agree to keep such offenders isolated for the rest of their life.

To answer the question - no: I could not and don't want press any button that brings death to another life.
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  #40  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:45
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Re: Forgiveness

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Could you press the button yourself?
Yes. It takes a strong man to stand up and make the world a better place, even though the instinct is not to kill. Don't think of yourself, think of the greater good.
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