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  #41  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:48
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Re: Forgiveness

It is interesting how this thread has become a death penalty debate. I don't mind: once a thread is released into the wild, it has a life of its own.

But I'm not that interested in the chap who's to be executed. I'm more interested in the chap who, despite having been shot in the face, has found the courage and the mercy to forgive his attacker, and who, moreoever, isn't merely prepared to sit back and say "yeah, I forgive him", but has actually gone to great lengths to act upon that forgiveness.

Isn't that an example for all of us, in all areas of our lives? If Mr Bhuiyan is able to forgive the man who almost killed him, can't we forgive those around us who commit much lesser crimes?
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  #42  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:53
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Re: Forgiveness

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It is interesting how this thread has become a death penalty debate. I don't mind: once a thread is released into the wild, it has a life of its own.

But I'm not that interested in the chap who's to be executed. I'm more interested in the chap who, despite having been shot in the face, has found the courage and the mercy to forgive his attacker, and who, moreoever, isn't merely prepared to sit back and say "yeah, I forgive him", but has actually gone to great lengths to act upon that forgiveness.

Isn't that an example for all of us, in all areas of our lives? If Mr Bhuiyan is able to forgive the man who almost killed him, can't we forgive those around us who commit much lesser crimes?
It's great that he can forgive. But at the same time it's incredibly naive to go around trying to save the shooter from execution, given the fact that he's being executed for two unrelated and far worse crimes.
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  #43  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:54
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Re: Forgiveness

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I am responsible for my actions. If I don't pay my taxes then I pay the consequences, if I kill someone in cold blood (murder) then I have to take the consequences - the rules of the game haven't changed. In some states in the US if you kill then you face the death penalty - wrongly or rightly, so what's to complain about?

If the guy had set off a bomb and killed 50 people or 150 people, what then? Would you be so quick to forgive?

Killing people is wrong and must be stopped, the only thing that sends a message to stop people doing it is the death penalty. If a guy on the street has no future anyway and his life is a hell, what good will locking him up for 20 years do?
How would you cater for miscarriages of justic ? There are numerous cases of people who have been imprisoned and then found to be innocent. While life imprsonment is still incalculalby wrong for someone who did not commit the crime, they can see the outside world when the miscarriage is revealed. If you kill them then you can't reverse it. So the "kill and be killed" rule is not logically sound.

Arguing "well its only for open and shut cases" isnt really an argument, because no case is open and shut in the end.
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  #44  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:55
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Re: Forgiveness

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It is interesting how this thread has become a death penalty debate. I don't mind: once a thread is released into the wild, it has a life of its own.

But I'm not that interested in the chap who's to be executed. I'm more interested in the chap who, despite having been shot in the face, has found the courage and the mercy to forgive his attacker, and who, moreoever, isn't merely prepared to sit back and say "yeah, I forgive him", but has actually gone to great lengths to act upon that forgiveness.

Isn't that an example for all of us, in all areas of our lives? If Mr Bhuiyan is able to forgive the man who almost killed him, can't we forgive those around us who commit much lesser crimes?
No, I don't agree. I think that saying you forgive the man is the easy way out. Basically he is just ignoring the crime, the pain and the consequences. He hasn't actually dealt with anything but pushed it aside. Not much to be respected for in my opinion.
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  #45  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:56
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Re: Forgiveness

I don't doubt the truthfulness of his forgiveness, but as it's been mentioned, there were other victims and it's not really up to him, and he also has the "luxury" (if the word can even be used) of knowing that the man who shot him will never be released.

It is much harder for others when the people who victimized them are released back into society. Then stuff like this happens:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ng-rapist.html
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Old 20.07.2011, 09:56
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Re: Forgiveness

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Isn't that an example for all of us, in all areas of our lives? If Mr Bhuiyan is able to forgive the man who almost killed him, can't we forgive those around us who commit much lesser crimes?

Everyone can forgive, anything can be forgiven, but it takes practice and the reward comes slowly over time. I try, I try to try, sometimes it works and the peace of mind I get from being able to move on and away from damaging hateful thoughts in my head is always a relief. I can either decide to fill my heads with dark damaging thoughts or I can turn my back and live the happy life I deserve, rather than let something ruin my day.

I am sure there are some medical reports/research out there on the positive effects it has on mental and physical health. I will try to look later.
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  #47  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:58
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Re: Forgiveness

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Everyone can forgive, anything can be forgiven, but it takes practice and the reward comes slowly over time. I try, I try to try, sometimes it works and the peace of mind I get from being able to move on and away from damaging hateful thoughts in my head is always a relief. I can either decide to fill my heads with dark damaging thoughts or I can turn my back and live the happy life I deserve, rather than let something ruin my day.

I am sure there are some medical reports/research out there on the positive effects it has on mental and physical health. I will try to look later.
Not forgiving doesn't mean filling your head with dark negative thoughts.
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  #48  
Old 20.07.2011, 09:58
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Re: Forgiveness

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fry the bastard

i'm loving this british anti-death penalty, americans are so barbaric, slanted article which sort of glosses over the fact that this guy murdered in cold blood two other completely innocent people and focuses on a one-eyed-guy and his willingness to forgive. a life for two lives (and an eye) seems like a fair trade to me.
Personally, I like the American "string the bastard up" line being peddaled, which refuses to take any context of the state of mind of the attacker at the time of the incident, or whether indeed he might be innocent after all.
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  #49  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:03
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Re: Forgiveness

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I don't doubt the truthfulness of his forgiveness, but as it's been mentioned, there were other victims and it's not really up to him, and he also has the "luxury" (if the word can even be used) of knowing that the man who shot him will never be released.

It is much harder for others when the people who victimized them are released back into society. Then stuff like this happens:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ng-rapist.html
however killing them in jail is no solution, especially when they are later found innocent http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-..._b_272327.html.
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Old 20.07.2011, 10:05
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Re: Forgiveness

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Isn't that an example for all of us, in all areas of our lives? If Mr Bhuiyan is able to forgive the man who almost killed him, can't we forgive those around us who commit much lesser crimes?
Isn't this funny you should talk about this.

Just yesterday I sent an SMS to a guy telling him how much I admire his oh so generous forgiving and patient spirit.

I've also known the opposite, where somebody struggled greatly to forgive me and that feels like that person has given me a prison sentence and won't let go until I repent in dust & ashes. It is a very aweful feeling.

I have been forgiven much and often and the effect it has on me is like that saying goes, who has been forgiven much loves much.

It doesn't hurt to practise forgiveness on the contrary it is very liberating but sometimes,
yes, sometimes the hurdles are too overwhelming to overcome, I can understand that too.
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  #51  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:06
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Re: Forgiveness

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Personally, I like the American "string the bastard up" line being peddaled, which refuses to take any context of the state of mind of the attacker at the time of the incident, or whether indeed he might be innocent after all.
those matters are actually resolved at trial and mitigating factors are always taken into account during sentencing.
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  #52  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:08
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Not forgiving doesn't mean filling your head with dark negative thoughts.
Sure it does.

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It's great that he can forgive. But at the same time it's incredibly naive to go around trying to save the shooter from execution, given the fact that he's being executed for two unrelated and far worse crimes.
He is trying to save the convict from execution through the law, a facility open to everyone. Those acting for the deceased have the opportunity to do the same. This crime and crimes like it happen because the US is culturally a violent place. You have people killing other people and then the state killing them out of some misguided Biblical definition of "justice". Man, Americans just need to chill. Just relax. He can't hurt anyone anymore. Deep breaths. And if you can't do that...be selfish. You think surrounding yourself with more death is going to make you feel better? That's a child's wish. It doesn't. It makes your feel contaminated. Surround yourself with good thoughts and pure ideals and you'll lead a happier life.

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those matters are actually resolved at trial and mitigating factors are always taken into account during sentencing.
There are new factors. He's been in jail for a while and educated himself and appears to have changed as a person. Unless you believe he was send by the devil himself to steal my britches! Yeeeehaw!
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  #53  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:31
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Re: Forgiveness

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however killing them in jail is no solution, especially when they are later found innocent http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-..._b_272327.html.
Pointing out that he'll never be released is being for the death penalty? I'm against it, BTW. Though I admit I have a hard time conjuring any sympathy for this man. And I'd really like to hear if the families of the other victims are supportive of Rais Bhuiyan's crusade.

There seem to be two discussions in this thread and they aren't on the same wavelengths. I don't think the people bringing up the facts of the case are actually going to get anywhere, so I'm going to stop here.

So yeah, forgiveness, beautiful stuff, man.
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  #54  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:37
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Re: Forgiveness

In no place on earth death penalty serves effectively as prevention of murders. If it would work, places like USA woulf be free of all crimes like that, for a long time. Effective like prohobition, I guess. Or pot bans for last 50 years. So what to do with culprit? Life behind bars, only possible solution except death. If somebody thinks prisoners can come out as better beings has no clue about prison systems around the world. And having somebody behind bars for 40-50 years costs system (and thus us) a lot.
Almost nobody really cares about hundrets of thousands of innocent people dying every year in Africa, be it malaria or malnutrition, so I really see no point of caring about that guy. If he really did it (and it seems so), let the world clean from stains like that. There is very little chance he can contribute positively somehow to system and society.
Forgiveness is a powerful thing, but the fact that one victim that survived forgives him does not make him a smaller danger to society, and should have nothing to do whether to kill him or not. It's personal matter of victim.
Personal opinion - death. Nothing can justify what he done, or make it more acceptable. If I will go on a killing spree, I will be prepared to bear consequences, so should others. These were cold blood murders.
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  #55  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:38
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Re: Forgiveness

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There are new factors. He's been in jail for a while and educated himself and appears to have changed as a person. Unless you believe he was send by the devil himself to steal my britches! Yeeeehaw!
That doesn't change anything. It is not OK for somebody to go around killing people and then say 'I've seen the light and now I'll be a good boy'.

I am not a religious person but given the choice between execution and saying I've found God it would be tempting to go for the latter.

and not forgiving does not mean filling your head full of dark, negative thoughts. You don't have to hate you just don't forgive.
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Old 20.07.2011, 10:47
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Re: Forgiveness

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That doesn't change anything. It is not OK for somebody to go around killing people and then say 'I've seen the light and now I'll be a good boy'.
.
So, seriously - I don't really care what's in the guy's head. He could be dancing around saying "lemme at em" and I'd still say don't put the guy to death. It literally helps nobody.

1. It hurts the murderer, but not even I care about him really.
2. It doesn't act as a deterrent - drug king pins and psychopaths aren't noticeably rational decision makers nor are they typically fearful of death - what scares the hell out of you, probably doesn't scare the hell out of them. Possibly nothing does.
3. It introduces effectively a "Department of Death" into the governmental machine - your government is, besides other things, now in the business of killing humans.
4. It doesn't make grieving family feel better. Nothing does. They're sold a bill of goods on TV that tells them that "justice" is what they should want and that that justice comes in the form of death. I see no evidence to show that parents of murder victims feel any differently in the US than in the UK.
5. It's not a particularly punishing form of punishment. Getting a lethal injection to take a criminal away from 50 years in a Supermax facility like Terre Haut is something I might opt for. The guys who are in there are far tougher than me - I can't believe this is the punishment/justice that everyone thinks it is.
6. We used to hang people upside down and light them on fire. Everyone outside of Riyadh now feels this is barbaric. We all live in Switzerland, a place of relatively low crime and an enlightened way of dealing with the ever present criminal element. Can we not all see there's an evolution here and the US style death penalty is on that evolutionary trend.


Anyway, I think the concept of forgiveness on one side is inextricably linked to the death penalty argument.
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  #57  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:48
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Re: Forgiveness

Wow, this thread has had some comments in it which make me ashamed to be a human being.

It is natural for humans to want revenge, and it takes courage to forgive someone who attacked you, nearly killed you and did kill others.

It is not natural to avenge a killing with pre-meditated killing.

To execute someone is premeditated murder. It is planned out, to the last detail, and is sometimes a semi-public spectacle. That, to me, is more horrific than the original crime. Calmly and meticulously planning the death of another human being is a crime that can get you...ironically...the death penalty (in many states in America).
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  #58  
Old 20.07.2011, 10:49
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Re: Forgiveness

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...s-in-UK.376032

No death involved here - but I'm sure it would still be hard..
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Old 20.07.2011, 10:53
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Re: Forgiveness

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To execute someone is premeditated murder. It is planned out, to the last detail, and is sometimes a semi-public spectacle. That, to me, is more horrific than the original crime.
That's the point isn't it? So other people don't go the same road...
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Old 20.07.2011, 10:55
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Re: Forgiveness

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That's the point isn't it? So other people don't go the same road...
So...if I get your logic, it is bad to commit murder outside of the justice system, but good to commit murder within the justice system?
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