Actually, I would say that to a veteran. That they signed up to be a part of a killing machine. Sorry if that offends some, but unless the killing is done in self defense, I can't agree that it is justified.

Architects of war, such as Bush and Cheney, should face jail IMO. And the opinion of a lot of other people.

I think *shrug* the world is a complicated place and it's difficult to say what's justified, whether invading Iraq for oil and killing the guy that attempted to gas a nation of Kurds out of existence is a good thing or bad thing and I'm not taking a view on this at the moment. However, the death penalty is pretty simple. One government killing one man for a specific crime. It is slow and deliberate and can be measured and assessed accurately and thus provides a much better factual specimen for argument that macro-politics.

You're right, I did let myself get distracted into a tangent.

Yes, I agree with you completely.

The above story isn't really about forgiveness; it's about the rights and wrongs of the death penalty. If the murderer hadn't been on death row, this forgiveness story wouldn't have made the papers.

I'm against the death penalty but haven't come up with a viable alternative except for one: crime prevention.

However, I don't want to be a party pooper and since forgiving ultimately allows one to use their energy in a more positive way, I forgive and even thank DB for posting this story.

Forgiveness is good, but some things are unforgivable.

Let's not forget that the government is not killing people but we are. The governments of the world are ultimately responsible to the people that they represent. In certain states/countries we the people have said it is OK to have the death penalty.

If you don't like it then push for change. We make the rules and we live and die by them. You cannot blame the government for the death penalty you have to blame the citizens.

no I was not referring to them

Oh. How disappointing. So: murderers, rapists, child molesters...what about those guilty of extreme physical violence like maiming someone?

Dude chill...

Kill them all publicly and make it a slow lingering death. Make it into a TV show where you can vote on who's next.

Well my 3 rappensworth is this. Death penalty is not a deterrent and therefore open to criticism that in the case of mistakes, it cannot be corrected. Life inprisonment is not a deterrent because for many lifers, its a nice cushy way of continuing on the life of crime as before except you get your meals paid for.
The guy that wanted to forgive and campaign for the commute of the death sentence is selfish because he hasn`t taken account of those that lost their loved ones.
I say bring back hard labour and send these lowlifes down the mines, in the drains,breaking rocks for road repairs and any other punishing job in the worst possible conditions like they do in Russia in the gulags or they did in the States with the chain gangs.
Anybody sent there will definitely regret his crime.
Anybody that was considering such a crime would most definitely think twice about it.
Anybody that was wrongly convicted will get a good workout.
Here endeth this mornings sermon.

I'm sorry, I don't see your point. Is it that because guns are hard to get in the UK, violent crime does not exist? Are only gun crimes considered violent? I would propose that it takes a far more violent person to knive someone or bash them with a brick or pipe than to merely pull a trigger.

Maybe they should patrol with them, it would have stopped several senseless murders last year alone. 12 dead in UK killing spree - I believe I recall hearing that one or more unarmed officers came accross Bird that day and had they been armed, they may have been able to mitigate some deaths. Not an attack, just observation...the loss of life is tragic.

BTW, do you think US police run around firing warning shots in the air and killing offenders?

I did not imply that it was a daily event, but it shows that violent crime is not just a US "cultural" occurance, and that violent crime is just as common in Europe. In my 3 short years in CH, every summer there have been enough Hooligan issues accross Europe to make the pages every few days. Maybe some are being re-hashed...when was the last time you read of such an incident in the US? I am sure someone will google it...but did one actually hear about it?

Another point was that I believe guns don't = a cultural propensity towards violence and that the death penalty does not propagate violence and that the peolpe of the US are not as a whole any more violent than Europe as a whole (taken as a whole to get similar population sizes, you can focus on individual country stats, but that would be cherry-picking results, and I could just as easily exclude regions of the US to show more or less violence.)

That said, I believe in proper gun control, although as you so kindly pointed out, the criminals will still find ways to get guns.

I say, stop it you giving me yellow shivers running down my spine.

Seriously, we're all good at thinking out punishment for crimes of others but what if it were you having done something worth a punishment,
which one would you prefer?

Well a comfy prison of course.

Sigh...you disappoint me...we invaded Iraq to make the rich richer through defense contracts etc...

I am an American, and in my opinion one of the reasons that the death penalty is supported by some, if not many Americans is not related so much to the moral question of propriety, but rather due to the proliferation of media reports of the "lifestyles" that convicted prisoners live in US prisons, and even on death row during the long drawn-out process of appeals prior to carrying out of the death sentence. These stories focus on the meals, exercise time, and opportunities for education that convicted criminals receive whilst incarcerated. Of course, the health care received by prisoners is also a favorite topic in light of the current state of affairs of US healthcare and the lack of it for some citizens. These articles generally end with a tabulation of the average yearly cost to house a prisoner, and it is crucial that the line "at taxpayers' expense" is included in the article. The amount is always a shockingly high amount to the average Joe, who is likely struggling to support a family of four on significantly less. For those without a moral or religious basis for viewpoint on the death penalty, it would seem that the lack of "fairness" that is implicit within those reports would likely have a great bearing on shaping the opinion of individuals.

@Nil - why are you groaning me exactly? You didn't even contribute to this thread but you groan me twice. I haven't even been troublesome, I just say that in this case forgiveness is not an option and that sometimes the death penalty is correct.

I am the original hippy most of the time, but killing is not an option.

So how can you justify the death penalty - legal killing?

Question answered.

I am trying but I was speeding the other day and I just don't want to die. But if I have to, I want the death penalty for broken quote tags on the EF.