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  #101  
Old 20.07.2011, 14:15
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Re: Forgiveness

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I am trying but I was speeding the other day and I just don't want to die. But if I have to, I want the death penalty for broken quote tags on the EF.
If I knew what you were going on about I could probably answer, anyways do not crucify me for giving an opinion.
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  #102  
Old 20.07.2011, 14:16
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Re: Forgiveness

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@Nil - why are you groaning me exactly? You didn't even contribute to this thread but you groan me twice. I haven't even been troublesome, I just say that in this case forgiveness is not an option and that sometimes the death penalty is correct.

I am the original hippy most of the time, but killing is not an option.
You have nothing of an original hippy in your statements...

I didn't think it was necessary to explain a groan since you never asked why I thanked you in the past. But obviously it pissed you off enough to go on my thread and be plain rude. Some will say I shouldn't bother, but I guess I am a kind nature...

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Yes. It takes a strong man to stand up and make the world a better place, even though the instinct is not to kill. Don't think of yourself, think of the greater good.
I believe you see yourself bigger than you are. It takes a strong man to stand up and forgive.

But you already showed me that when you get angry or annoyed, you take revenge...


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No, I don't agree. I think that saying you forgive the man is the easy way out. Basically he is just ignoring the crime, the pain and the consequences. He hasn't actually dealt with anything but pushed it aside. Not much to be respected for in my opinion.
Forgiveness is very difficult to achieve. Did you ever try? It is certainly not an easy way out. It is much easier to hate someone, to cry on yourself and to be the victim.

Your statement above is a shame to his belief and actions. You should sit and learn.
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  #103  
Old 20.07.2011, 14:16
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Re: Forgiveness

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Well a comfy prison of course.
That is what I wished for my little brother when he got caught.
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  #104  
Old 20.07.2011, 14:29
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Re: Forgiveness

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I believe you see yourself bigger than you are. It takes a strong man to stand up and forgive.
I normally forgive and I certainly do not see myself bigger than anybody else sees themselves. Sometimes the right thing to do is punish and not forgive, even if it goes against your natural instincts.

As for your other points I do not want to hijack this thread, but yes you pissed me off but rather than groan you I posted on your thread some valid information - even if you don't like it... and it wasn't rude. You will see I have made similar comments on posts made by people with MBAs who don't have the slightest clue to what they're talking about.

Don't take it personally.
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  #105  
Old 20.07.2011, 14:39
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Re: Forgiveness

I personally always forgive. It take too much effort and stress (aging stress) to keep and hold grudges. I don't forget though, some might believe those two must go together.
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  #106  
Old 20.07.2011, 14:58
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Re: Forgiveness

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I personally always forgive. It take too much effort and stress (aging stress) to keep and hold grudges. I don't forget though, some might believe those two must go together.
Honestly, I forgive and forget most of the time. Some people in the forum will fight on the topic and hate each other for months. I don't. I can bother to hate someone, to be mad and to remember.

It is probably why I have no one on my block list... I can't bother to be mad at someone.
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  #107  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:02
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Re: Forgiveness

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I personally always forgive. It take too much effort and stress (aging stress) to keep and hold grudges. I don't forget though, some might believe those two must go together.
Its impossible to forget. You might have forgiven the person but to totally wipe it out of your memory? Nah.

Then again - and I am musing here - what really is forgiveness? We use that term so broadly. Is it subjective individually? Does it mean that you no longer feel any anger towards that person for he/she has done to you? Or do you have to even forget what has happened to constitute forgiveness - hence the phrase "forgive and forget", or do you go the extra mile like this person in DB's original post?
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  #108  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:04
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Re: Forgiveness

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Its impossible to forget. You might have forgiven the person but to totally wipe it out of your memory? Nah.
Im with you here...
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  #109  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:05
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Re: Forgiveness

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I personally always forgive. It take too much effort and stress (aging stress) to keep and hold grudges. I don't forget though, some might believe those two must go together.
I normally forgive and forget. I also think carefully about groaning people on the EF and have only groaned 10 times in 4 years....some other people (very forgiving people by all accounts) have groaned over 500 times.

I would rather be slightly unforgiving sometimes than quick to condemn.
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  #110  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:14
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Re: Forgiveness

I have immense difficulty forgiving people. In fact, I found it so difficult to forgive two people in my life in particular that I was obliged to ask for help - through prayer - which I received. That help changed my life: I simply couldn't do it on my own.

That's why I am so impressed and humbled by examples such as the one in the article. If he can forgive someone for shooting him in the face, what excuse have I to hold grudges against those whose offences, in comparison, are chicken feed?
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  #111  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:14
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Re: Forgiveness

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I normally forgive and forget. I also think carefully about groaning people on the EF and have only groaned 10 times in 4 years....some other people (very forgiving people by all accounts) have groaned over 500 times.

I would rather be slightly unforgiving sometimes than quick to condemn.
While you are at it, did you look how many times that person Thanked? I don't think groan is as serious as death penalty, isn't it? It is just a way to show that somone disagree.

Why no one gets so insulted about thanks?
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  #112  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:16
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Re: Forgiveness

If everyone would learn to forgive think of the money that would be saved on jails!

Imagine, Mr. Badguy kidnaps and rapes two lovely young girls, they escape or are rescued or whatever, they are well raised girls so they forgive Mr. Badguy.

Judge,"Mr. B, you were facing two consecutive terms of 30 years for your crimes, but these fine young ladies have forgiven you. Goodbye!".


Is that what we're talking about? Or is it forgiveness as long as there is punishment, as long as the punishment isn't extreme like the death penalty? Can you forgive and still punish?
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  #113  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:17
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Re: Forgiveness

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From The Merchant of Venice, first performed in 1596 and published in 1600, when Portia speaks to Shylock in Act IV, Scene I.


The Quality of Mercy


The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
But mercy is above this sceptered sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show like God's
When mercy seasons justice.
I was about to post this, I think that there is a difference between mercy and forgiveness. The horrible thing about this speech is that shortly after the speech, when given the opportunity gentle Portia exacts revenge in a judicial system which is biased against Jews.

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And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.
If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility?
Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his
sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge.
The villainy you teach me, I will execute,
and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
(Act III, scene I)

In the trial Shylock represents the Jewish side in contrast to the Christian one in a matter of highest importance: Justice (Jewish, Old Testament) is confronted with Mercy (Christian, New Testament). In the Christian view mercy is the decisive step after justice is reached. Therefore the Christians in the courtroom urge mercy. Beside the fact, that Shylock as a Jew is not in duty to give mercy, he is not able as well, because for this you need love. He does not find love at all, but hate. Shakespeare explains this in Shylock's monologue very clearly. To be merciful despite the hate nevertheless you have to love your enemy (New Testament). That means in fact that the Christians in the courtroom urge Shylock to behave like a very true Christian by loving his enemies although they themselves failed even in loving just their neighbours (the Jews) in the past before.
I was much affected by the writings of Alice Miller:

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she also criticized psychotherapists' advice to clients to forgive their abusive parents, arguing that this could only hinder recovery through remembering and feeling childhood pain. It was her contention that the majority of therapists fear this truth and that they work under the influence of interpretations culled from both Western and Oriental religions, which preach forgiveness by the once-mistreated child. She believed that forgiveness did not resolve hatred, but covered it in a dangerous way in the grown adult: displacement on scapegoats, as she discussed in her psycho-biographies of Adolf Hitler and Jürgen Bartsch, both of whom she described as having suffered severe parental abuse.[18]
In any situation it is vitally important to me that forgiveness is not blind.

What worries me is when religious people forgive simply because they believe they will be rewarded in heaven without understanding the process. This man cannot make the pilgrimage to mecca and become a Haji unless he has practiced forgiveness. In Islam it is advised to forgive rather than seek vengeance, as exacting revenge may injure the innocent.

Islam acutally advises the guilty thus:


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To receive forgiveness from God there are three requirements:

Recognizing the offense itself and its admission before God.
Making a commitment not to repeat the offense.
Asking for forgiveness from God.

If the offense was committed against another human being, or against society, a fourth condition is added:
Recognizing the offense before those against whom offense was committed and before God.
Committing oneself not to repeat the offense.
Doing whatever needs to be done to rectify the offense (within reason) and asking pardon of the offended party.
Asking God for forgiveness.
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  #114  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:19
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Re: Forgiveness

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Its impossible to forget. You might have forgiven the person but to totally wipe it out of your memory? Nah.

Then again - and I am musing here - what really is forgiveness? We use that term so broadly. Is it subjective individually? Does it mean that you no longer feel any anger towards that person for he/she has done to you? Or do you have to even forget what has happened to constitute forgiveness - hence the phrase "forgive and forget", or do you go the extra mile like this person in DB's original post?
Isn't forgiveness really just giving yourself the ability to move forward without devoting daily mental and emotional energy toward the person who wronged you? In that sense it allows one to avoid taking anything away from those people and things that he or she knows, loves, and enjoys.

If so, in essence it is a personal decision not so much due to any changed feelings toward the offender, but rather more like a decision to persevere and triumph as an individual.

Conversely, choosing not to forgive would be giving the offender the power to control one's feelings and emotions indefinitely.

Forgetting, however, is quite another thing, which we are not programmed to do (unless it is that one important thing on the grocery list that we need for dinner).
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  #115  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:20
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Re: Forgiveness

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If everyone would learn to forgive think of the money that would be saved on jails!

Imagine, Mr. Badguy kidnaps and rapes two lovely young girls, they escape or are rescued or whatever, they are well raised girls so they forgive Mr. Badguy.

Judge,"Mr. B, you were facing two consecutive terms of 30 years for your crimes, but these fine young ladies have forgiven you. Goodbye!".


Is that what we're talking about? Or is if forgiveness as long as there is punishment, as long as the punishment isn't extreme like the death penalty? Can you forgive and still punish?
Jail vs Death is a pretty bad comparaison, don't you think?
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  #116  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:21
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Re: Forgiveness

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Jail vs Death is a pretty bad comparaison, don't you think?
Yeah, so is this a forgiveness thread or a death penalty thread?
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  #117  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:23
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Re: Forgiveness

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While you are at it, did you look how many times that person Thanked? I don't think groan is as serious as death penalty, isn't it? It is just a way to show that somone disagree.

Why no one gets so insulted about thanks?
You show you disagree by joining the discussion and reserve groans for the idiots or the ones you strongly disagree with.

Anyway I forgive you, now let's move on. This thread is all about forgiving after all.
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  #118  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:25
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Re: Forgiveness

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Conversely, choosing not to forgive would be giving the offender the power to control one's feelings and emotions indefinitely.
I disagree here. I can control my reaction and that reaction can be to forgive or it can be to seek punishment. Just because I don't forgive doesn't mean that I have to be a hostage to the offender for the rest of my life, it just means I seek another solution.
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Old 20.07.2011, 15:29
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Re: Forgiveness

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If everyone would learn to forgive think of the money that would be saved on jails!

Imagine, Mr. Badguy kidnaps and rapes two lovely young girls, they escape or are rescued or whatever, they are well raised girls so they forgive Mr. Badguy.

Judge,"Mr. B, you were facing two consecutive terms of 30 years for your crimes, but these fine young ladies have forgiven you. Goodbye!".


Is that what we're talking about? Or is it forgiveness as long as there is punishment, as long as the punishment isn't extreme like the death penalty? Can you forgive and still punish?
There is a difference between the victim forgiving the offender versus being accountable for your actions in public interest and to the legal system, which we all know, without that, that society will run amok.

Thats how I see it anyways
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  #120  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:30
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Is that what we're talking about? Or is it forgiveness as long as there is punishment, as long as the punishment isn't extreme like the death penalty? Can you forgive and still punish?
That's a very good question, and I doubt there is an easy answer.

Is the primary function of a prison to punish, to reform, or to keep the offender away from the rest of society until he is safe to be released?

I don't see the maintenance of (humane) prisons as contradictory to the principle of personal forgiveness. What the state does in the name of the law, and what an individual victim does in his own name are two entirely different things.

Having said that, I see no contradiction between believing in the rule of law and using that law to fight for something you believe to be right, as in the case of the chap in the article.

Even if I supported the death penalty (which I don't, not that it is important), I'd still be impressed with the conduct of Mr Bhuiyan.
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