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  #141  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:20
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Re: Forgiveness

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We have to base our views on something tangible and this is my personal experience. I can always make something up and base facts on that but what would that achieve? We have to draw from our experience.
I was once mugged by some black people.

Black people are, therefore, more likely to be muggers than non-black people.

How about this for a radical notion: religious people are equally as fallible, stupid, vengeful, cruel, selfish and lazy as non-religious people. You just notice their fallibility, stupidity, vengefulness, cruelty, selfishness and laziness more because you have greater expectations of them.

You can hardly blame them for that, can you?
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  #142  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:20
economisto
 
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Re: Forgiveness

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Well, since you groaned me you kind of proved me right, so I make it a yes.
But I removed it AND I'm not religious. So is that a double negative or what?
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  #143  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:21
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Re: Forgiveness

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That's a very good question, and I doubt there is an easy answer.

Is the primary function of a prison to punish, to reform, or to keep the offender away from the rest of society until he is safe to be released?

I don't see the maintenance of (humane) prisons as contradictory to the principle of personal forgiveness. What the state does in the name of the law, and what an individual victim does in his own name are two entirely different things.
There are two elements to justice, punishment and redress.

So suppose you steal an apple. The greengrocer may forgive you, but he still demands you give the apple back. His forgiveness is limited to him being willing to let things rest and not holding any grudges against you, but doesn't extend to him letting you keep the apple for free. You've still got to pay for that. So forgiveness is not the same as walking away scott-free. This concept is often confused by people thinking "if I'm forgiven then I'm off the hook".

Now to expand the above example, if I steal an apple from a greengrocer, I am

1) in debt to the greengrocer for removing his property
2) in debt to the law for breaking a law of the realm
3) if you want to add the religious element, in debt to God for breaking a holy commandment

Each of these instances can only forgive that part of the debt that is theirs. So the greengrocer may forgive you, but the law or its representatives can go after you all the same. Likewise seeking godly forgiveness can rehabilitate you in the eyes of your church, but does not redempt you before the law of the land.
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  #144  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:22
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Re: Forgiveness

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But I removed it AND I'm not religious. So is that a double negative or what?
Now you're just confusing me. I never claimed to be intelligent. But hey, I forgive you.
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  #145  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:22
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Re: Forgiveness

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Witness Impact Statements are now read out in the UK Courts.
These affect sentencing. It seems you feel sentencing should be retributive, and not rehabilitive. The idea of justice is to be restorative to the victim and rehabilitive to the perpetrator.

If the victim forgives , why can't you ? What impact does it have on you ?

A spirtitual person may be aghast at the causality behind letting a perpetrator die at the hands of the State if a life saving act would be brought about by a single phrase of "I forgive". This does not mean let the person go free, but rather, forgive, understand and rehabilitate. A dead person is of no use to society, a rehabilitated man would/could contribute at many levels.
Right, here we go.

A serious crime should have a tariff. Taking murder for example, there are a range of jail terms depending on the severity / depravity of the offence.

Two people committing the same murder, with the same method should receive the same sentence. Witness statements should not affect sentencing, as everyone reacts differently to different scenarios - do you think a combat veteran or pathologist is likely to be as upset at the sight of a dead body as a normal member of the general public. I doubt it, but someone should not be punished less because luckily a witness was unmoved by their crime.

In the case of serious crime, the victim usually can't forgive, not on this mortal plane anyway. In the OP's instance, 2/3 victims couldn't forgive, so not sure why the one that survived's opinion should have any influence on the sentencing. I'm glad he's over it and forgiven, his life will be far happier not having that millstone of hatred around his neck, but that's not a reason to not punish the shooter.

Again, the victim's religious sensibilities cannot be taken into account in sentencing (aside from whether the criminal violated a discrimination law during the crime). Despite the apparent current evidence to the contrary, the US was created a secular state, and this is enshrined in its laws and constitution, basing sentencing on religion would be against everything the country is meant to stand for, and therefore should not be countenanced.

Given how high the rate of criminal re-offending is, your assertion that serious criminals are more use alive to the country than dead is almost certainly untrue, probably in a civil security sense and certainly in an economic sense.
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  #146  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:25
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Re: Forgiveness

I just don't believe in the concept of me forgiving. For me to forgive I have to have judged that person guilty of something. My opinions would be personal, driven by emotions and probably prejudice. It is up to society to judge and forgive.

What suprises me is when people think that they have done me a wrong and seek my forgiveness. I can’t give it either for the reasons given above- or because I don’t know what the hell they are talking about- they must learn to right the wrong and forgive themselves - if they think they are guilty of something.

If someone has upset me ( takes a lot) I usually let them know, it is important that we discuss it and sort it out. If they refuse then I will try to reason - if I still feel wronged then I can be extremely vindictive.

Neither do I ask forgiveness. I apologize and try to live with it, some things cannot be forgiven. Sometimes I am just plain, greedy, evil, manipulative and selfish- there is no justification and I deserve to be punished. It is important that I live with those that can recognize it!

I do feels strongly about people who evoke guilt complex in order to control others; those that act the martyr and preach about the duty of others- it is an effective yet cruel device in that it emotionally cripples the caring.
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  #147  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:25
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Re: Forgiveness

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In Islamic law, punishment can actually be withheld if the victim publically forgives the perpetrator and asks for the punishment to be withheld. If the victim is dead, his/her heirs can plead on his/her part.
I meant this flippant point on an 'All religions' level, as almost all preach forgiveness high on their Agenda.

Your example above is an interesting one though, as it enables the wealthy to exempt themselves from punishment in many instances, by buying the 'forgiveness' of the family. This surely cannot be a good thing.
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  #148  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:27
economisto
 
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Re: Forgiveness

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Right, here we go.

A serious crime should have a tariff.
I don't believe this at all. In the US these are called mandatory minimums. They're incredibly racist with crack possession ( poor black people) attracting far harsher sentencing that powder cocaine possession (rich white people). Also, it's trusting a judge to understand the intricacies of a case to help a jury reach a verdict, but to take away his discretion when it comes to sentencing. Talk to any QC or judge and ask them which way they'll vote in this case or that and unless they're being screened by the Senate judiciary committee they'll tell you that they don't know. That the intricacies and minutiae of a case will invariably outweigh any "facts" and that no two cases are alike.
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  #149  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:31
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Re: Forgiveness

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Two people committing the same murder, with the same method should receive the same sentence.
Manslaughter by car, and intentionally running over my boss are to be equally punished?


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Witness statements should not affect sentencing, as everyone reacts differently to different scenarios - do you think a combat veteran or pathologist is likely to be as upset at the sight of a dead body as a normal member of the general public. I doubt it, but someone should not be punished less because luckily a witness was unmoved by their crime.
Witnesses are relevant to prove the other aspects of First degree other than premeditated murder. That is the setup of and advantageous situation and Traîtrise.

Given that previous cases could give precedent to a particular sentencing, witnesses are therefore required to sway towards or away that said precedent.

Or at least that's how I remember it was... I dunno, I plead the 5th...
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  #150  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:32
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Re: Forgiveness

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Manslaughter by car, and intentionally running over my boss are to be equally punished?


Witnesses are relevant to prove the other aspects of First degree other than premeditated murder. That is the setup of and advantageous situation and Traîtrise.
Isn't manslaughter kind off accidental and intentionally running over your boss premeditated murder, and hence different crimes?
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  #151  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:33
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Re: Forgiveness

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Isn't manslaughter kind off accidental and intentionally running over your boss premeditated murder, and hence different crimes?
He only mentioned method, which does not include intent. that's why I said it.
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  #152  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:46
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Re: Forgiveness

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Everyone can forgive, anything can be forgiven, but it takes practice and the reward comes slowly over time. I try, I try to try, sometimes it works and the peace of mind I get from being able to move on and away from damaging hateful thoughts in my head is always a relief. I can either decide to fill my heads with dark damaging thoughts or I can turn my back and live the happy life I deserve, rather than let something ruin my day.

I am sure there are some medical reports/research out there on the positive effects it has on mental and physical health. I will try to look later.
This sampling of research results looks promising.
This thread strikes a very personal chord. Forgiveness has been unbelievably hard, but the rewards of it are way beyond what I'd imagined. A refusal to forgive spreads poison in and out.
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  #153  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:47
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Re: Forgiveness

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Ah but that's a fact we all know gingers don't have souls.
I know- I'm a ginger-well strawberry blonde, I lighten my hair but hey, you know, fake it till you make it.

Religion is a tool some use it to preach understanding and inclusion and some use to preach hell fire and damnation and exclusion. Religion has been used to some to endorse slavery, greed and the denigration of women. The British justice system is still loosely based on the bible.

To me it all comes down to whether you are loving trusting and giving or hateful distrusting and mean. one of the nicest phrases to me is when a person asks for forgiveness the other replies there is nothing to forgive.
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  #154  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:47
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Re: Forgiveness

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I don't believe this at all. In the US these are called mandatory minimums. They're incredibly racist with crack possession ( poor black people) attracting far harsher sentencing that powder cocaine possession (rich white people). Also, it's trusting a judge to understand the intricacies of a case to help a jury reach a verdict, but to take away his discretion when it comes to sentencing. Talk to any QC or judge and ask them which way they'll vote in this case or that and unless they're being screened by the Senate judiciary committee they'll tell you that they don't know. That the intricacies and minutiae of a case will invariably outweigh any "facts" and that no two cases are alike.
Sorry, you don't believe a crime should have a tariff, or you don't believe the US justice system has set the right tariffs.

Please do not mal-argue me.
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  #155  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:48
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Re: Forgiveness

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Sorry, you don't believe a crime should have a tariff, or you don't believe the US justice system has set the right tariffs.

Please do not mal-argue me.
Mal-argue eh

I don't believe crimes should have "tariffs". I thought that was obvious from my post.
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  #156  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:50
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Re: Forgiveness

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I know- I'm a ginger-well strawberry blonde, I lighten my hair but hey, you know, fake it till you make it.

enjoy....
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  #157  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:50
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Re: Forgiveness

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Manslaughter by car, and intentionally running over my boss are to be equally punished?
No sir, one is Manslaughter, one is Murder. Two different crimes.

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Witnesses are relevant to prove the other aspects of First degree other than premeditated murder. That is the setup of and advantageous situation and Traîtrise.

Given that previous cases could give precedent to a particular sentencing, witnesses are therefore required to sway towards or away that said precedent.

Or at least that's how I remember it was... I dunno, I plead the 5th...
I am not saying disregard witness statements, they are clearly necessary, I am saying remove the emotional aspect and let them report the facts.
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  #158  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:53
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Re: Forgiveness

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Urge to kick, growing.

I hope he'll forgive!
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  #159  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:54
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Re: Forgiveness

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This sampling of research results looks promising.
This thread strikes a very personal chord. Forgiveness has been unbelievably hard, but the rewards of it are way beyond what I'd imagined. A refusal to forgive spreads poison in and out.
I know that it comes from a reputable source but care to explain this (taken from the study) anyone?

Quote:
Forgiveness is Not the Absence of Unforgiveness
Most research examines forgiveness in terms of decreased negative motivation, or unforgiveness (e.g., revenge, avoidance) toward the transgressor. Although decreasing unforgiveness is undeniably important, a benevolent motivational state toward the harm-doer that is not achieved simply by overcoming negative motivation is fundamental to forgiveness.
Just as health is not the absence of illness, forgiveness is not the absence of
unforgiveness. We tested this perspective in 2 studies that examined the impact of forgiveness on conflict resolution in marriage.
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Old 20.07.2011, 15:55
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Mal-argue eh

I don't believe crimes should have "tariffs". I thought that was obvious from my post.
You surely must believe that Murder must be punished more severely than shoplifting?

Yes, I thought so, so you do believe there should be set jail terms for certain crimes. So your beef is that these terms are unfairly weighted against particular sections of society - all good, I quite agree.

It is the old joke where you say to a female friend, would you sleep with that fella for a million quid? Yes she says. Would you sleep with him for a fiver - are you out of your mind, no, she says, how dare you suggest that. Well say I, we've already established you would sleep with someone if they paid you, we're just haggling on price.
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