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  #161  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:57
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Re: Forgiveness

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You surely must believe that Murder must be punished more severely than shoplifting?
The most severe punishments should be reserved for illegally downloading music off the internet. Some people call that stealing but that's a misleading term beacause theft has a single victim and clearly limited damage whereas downloading endangers the entire music industry and the insanely extravagant liefstyle of those who milk it. Personally I call this type of crime international terrorism and people who do it should be punished accordingly.
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  #162  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:01
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Re: Forgiveness

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Yes but he's only faking- it takes on to know one!
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  #163  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:04
economisto
 
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Re: Forgiveness

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You surely must believe that Murder must be punished more severely than shoplifting?

Yes, I thought so, so you do believe there should be set jail terms for certain crimes.
lol...there must be some people who will accept these non sequiturs but it ain't me. That I have a general feeling that Porsches should be more expensive than Fords doesn't follow that I think the prices should be set by central government.

I believe that sentencing should be up to the judge, that no two murders or shoplifting cases are the same and that similarly no two sentences should be the same.
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  #164  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:08
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Re: Forgiveness

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lol...there must be some people who will accept these non sequiturs but it ain't me. That I have a general feeling that Porsches should be more expensive than Fords doesn't follow that I think the prices should be set by central government.

I believe that sentencing should be up to the judge, that no two murders or shoplifting cases are the same and that similarly no two sentences should be the same.
And the jury- don't forget the jury. I recently met two great judges, that go out of their way to include the public and educate on the judicial process.
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  #165  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:08
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Re: Forgiveness

Who forgives Murdoch?
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  #166  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:52
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Re: Forgiveness

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lol...there must be some people who will accept these non sequiturs but it ain't me. That I have a general feeling that Porsches should be more expensive than Fords doesn't follow that I think the prices should be set by central government.

I believe that sentencing should be up to the judge, that no two murders or shoplifting cases are the same and that similarly no two sentences should be the same.
Judges are also human and fallable, so they need guidelines.

Whilst there are plenty of Fords which are more expensive than Porsches, are you really suggesting that there are instances of shoplifting more serious than Murder.

Thought not.

Therefore, Murder should ALWAYS carry a heavier punishment than shoplifting, and that should be a fact, irrelevant of the discretion of the Judge.

Not that much of a non-sequitur
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  #167  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:12
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Re: Forgiveness

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Judges are also human and fallable, so they need guidelines.

Whilst there are plenty of Fords which are more expensive than Porsches, are you really suggesting that there are instances of shoplifting more serious than Murder.

Thought not.

Therefore, Murder should ALWAYS carry a heavier punishment than shoplifting, and that should be a fact, irrelevant of the discretion of the Judge.

Not that much of a non-sequitur
Judges are experts in the specific case they're trying and they are the only experts in that case. They don't need and should not have interference from ignorant parties. You have taken two crimes which are very far apart in seriousness. Even before tariffs, I would submit that no sentence for shoplifting has been more severe than for murder. Judges don't need to be told that. However, perhaps there are some cases of eg. rape which are more serious that some cases of eg murder. For example, I would submit that violent, premeditated rape could deserve a greater prison sentence than a murder of passion.
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  #168  
Old 20.07.2011, 20:05
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Re: Forgiveness

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In my family it's the red heads. The bastards.
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Ah but that's a fact we all know gingers don't have souls.
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Yes but he's only faking- it takes on to know one!

Huh ?

why do we always get picked on ?
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  #169  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:19
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Re: Forgiveness

Surely forgiveness is dependent on the transgressor recognising their transgression, ie, seeking redemption (confession?)? Only then can peace be attained between the two parties, otherwise it's acceptance - bygones? Stoicism? - masquerading as forgiveness. I'd imagine it very damaging to believe you've forgiven someone and in later times learn they were not actually sorry.

Is it possible to forgive someone who doesn't repent?

Grace and courage allow one to move on from such impositions, but I'm uncertain if forgiveness is a one way street, hence the importance - and urgency (justice delayed is justice denied etc. ) - of seeking peace. Is it up to the Angels alone to facilitate such accord or is there room for us to ask what we can do?

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We kill people who kill people
To show people that killing people is wrong.
If anyone can show a source which proves the death penalty has a significant effect on preventing bad things from happening, I'll eat my cat.
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  #170  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:26
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Re: Forgiveness

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Surely forgiveness is dependent on the transgressor recognising their transgression, ie, seeking redemption (confession?)? Only then can peace be attained between the two parties, otherwise it's acceptance - bygones? Stoicism? - masquerading as forgiveness. I'd imagine it very damaging to believe you've forgiven someone and in later times learn they were not actually sorry.

Is it possible to forgive someone who doesn't repent?

Grace and courage allow one to move on from such impositions, but I'm uncertain if forgiveness is a one way street, hence the importance - and urgency (justice delayed is justice denied etc. ) - of seeking peace. Is it up to the Angels alone to facilitate such accord or is there room for us to ask what we can do?




If anyone can show a source which proves the death penalty has a significant effect on preventing bad things from happening, I'll eat my cat.

If you truly want to forgive, then forgiveness should be unconditional. Else you are simply judging that person again.
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  #171  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:26
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Re: Forgiveness

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Is it possible to forgive someone who doesn't repent?
Yes it is, if that person is, to put it bluntly, a bloody nutter.

Some people are simply not responsible for their actions, and it is sometimes necessary for the victim to forgive them for the sake of his own sanity and wellbeing.

(Speaking from grim experience here)
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  #172  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:26
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Re: Forgiveness

I see that this particular felon met his maker last night. The bit that gets me is that prior to his extermination, he gets his choice of meals, favourite burgers or whatever. I can imagine the conversation.....
Prison Guard :- Hey man, its good news.
Felon :- Yeah, have I been commuted?
Prison Guard :- No
Felon :- So what`s the good news then?
Prison Guard :- You can have anything you want for dinner tonight?
Felon :- Yeah? even Mac Ds with an extra large Coke and ice cream and everything?
Prison Guard :- Yeah man, anything your want
Felon :- Thats great, why tonight ?
Prison Guard :- Because tomorrow we re going to stick a needle in you and put you to death.

.......... anyone care to explain the logic behind that?
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  #173  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:28
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Re: Forgiveness

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Surely forgiveness is dependent on the transgressor recognising their transgression, ie, seeking redemption (confession?)?


Actually UM, this is not always the case, sometimes we as humans (and I am talking about personal experience) need to move on and we forgive to let go of grudges and in general bad energy that just does not let you go ahead in life. You see the transgressor as someone with limitations or lack of a big enough IQ to realize that what he/she did hurt you, sometimes they are not even aware of what they have done...but you forgive for your own good...
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  #174  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:38
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Re: Forgiveness

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If anyone can show a source which proves the death penalty has a significant effect on preventing bad things from happening, I'll eat my cat.
Most people who were executed never caused trouble again.

The only known exception was back in the days when Augustus still ruled the Empire. There was some guy teaching a strange new religion who didn't even get the hint when they executed him.
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  #175  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:51
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Re: Forgiveness

As a society, I find it terrible to do it. We are as murder as the guy who killed someone else.

Why we? Because we let this happened.

I am trully sad of this guy's death. He commited a murder, by dying, he doesn't bring back the deaths and he is no longer punished.

It is just revenge and it doesn't bring anything good.
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  #176  
Old 21.07.2011, 09:55
economisto
 
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Re: Forgiveness

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I see that this particular felon met his maker last night. The bit that gets me is that prior to his extermination, he gets his choice of meals, favourite burgers or whatever. I can imagine the conversation.....
Prison Guard :- Hey man, its good news.
Felon :- Yeah, have I been commuted?
Prison Guard :- No
Felon :- So what`s the good news then?
Prison Guard :- You can have anything you want for dinner tonight?
Felon :- Yeah? even Mac Ds with an extra large Coke and ice cream and everything?
Prison Guard :- Yeah man, anything your want
Felon :- Thats great, why tonight ?
Prison Guard :- Because tomorrow we re going to stick a needle in you and put you to death.

.......... anyone care to explain the logic behind that?
Yeah. It's the US so when in doubt ask yourself "could this be a whacko misinterpretation of the New Testament, possibly gleaned from cartoons on TV? The answer is yes. The Last Supper.
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  #177  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:05
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Re: Forgiveness

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Yeah. It's the US so when in doubt ask yourself "could this be a whacko misinterpretation of the New Testament, possibly gleaned from cartoons on TV? The answer is yes. The Last Supper.
I blame Tom and Jerry. (It's censored in the UK )
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  #178  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:06
economisto
 
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Re: Forgiveness

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I blame Tom and Jerry. (It's censored in the UK )
And apparently the "absolutely anything" is rubbish. It's anything off the menu at White Castle or iHop. I'd stick with prison food than have to choke down a slider.
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  #179  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:15
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Re: Forgiveness

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And apparently the "absolutely anything" is rubbish. It's anything off the menu at White Castle or iHop. I'd stick with prison food than have to choke down a slider.
Actually, the last meal is often quite elaborate. Can't believe I'm doing this but Hoppy is asleep.

Last meal (wikipedia)

I suppose eating is one of life's great pleasures and offering something special prior to execution is a sprinkling of humanity on a cold black act.
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  #180  
Old 21.07.2011, 10:18
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Re: Forgiveness

Here is an interesting art project on the subject of last meals.
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