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  #41  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:42
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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No, my point was that people hide information that they consider private, even though it probably makes no difference to anybody.
So the only secrets we should be able to have are the ones that we can somehow make private?

EDIT: Hang on, you're advocating surveillance, then saying if people don't want to be watched, they should hide.
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  #42  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:45
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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But you're dying to know about your neighbours' sex life though, huh?
Not really, no.
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  #43  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:49
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

Do the things that we want to be kept secret need to be kept secret? That is part of the question. Would it damage us if our boss/neighbour knew what sort of porn we watched? and if it does the wider question is why? Why are we quick to judge and be judged?

My personal take on things is that people are less interested in each other than you might at first think.
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  #44  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:50
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Not really, no.
So why do we all think that our neighbours are interested in our lives when they probably aren't?
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  #45  
Old 20.07.2011, 15:59
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Do the things that we want to be kept secret need to be kept secret? That is part of the question. Would it damage us if our boss/neighbour knew what sort of porn we watched? and if it does the wider question is why? Why are we quick to judge and be judged?

My personal take on things is that people are less interested in each other than you might at first think.
Depends if on your boss or neighbour doesn't it? If they're a good sort, prob not a prob, but what if they're just an interferring busybody who does like to poke their nose in other peoples business? Just because most people don't care doesn't mean all people don't care.
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  #46  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:01
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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So why do we all think that our neighbours are interested in our lives when they probably aren't?
Just one is enough.
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  #47  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:04
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

Come to think of it, why aren't you using your full name here? Also, your profile doesn't really list enough about you, could you post more so I can see if I could find a dumb picture of you to post?
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  #48  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:09
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Come to think of it, why aren't you using your full name here? Also, your profile doesn't really list enough about you, could you post more so I can see if I could find a dumb picture of you to post?
Why so hateful? Why not post a nice picture of me? It seems that people are afraid of each other and use privacy as a means of protecting themselves.

It seems that we think that people will use personal information about us in a negative way. I guess I can blame the gutter press for that.
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  #49  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:19
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Why so hateful? Why not post a nice picture of me? It seems that people are afraid of each other and use privacy as a means of protecting themselves.
To a certain extent, yes, and it's quite reasonable. Even if everyone were really nice, chances are people would still be private.

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It seems that we think that people will use personal information about us in a negative way. I guess I can blame the gutter press for that.
Not just the gutter press, it's a fact of life. Gossip is a time old tradition.
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  #50  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:28
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Do the things that we want to be kept secret need to be kept secret? That is part of the question. Would it damage us if our boss/neighbour knew what sort of porn we watched? and if it does the wider question is why? Why are we quick to judge and be judged?

My personal take on things is that people are less interested in each other than you might at first think.
Yes absolutely there are a host of things that you want kept secret should be secret. Ranging from the blindingly obvious: medical records are an item that you do not want to share with a wide ranging audience through to personal viewpoints on any number of social or political matters.

To say it wouldnt 'damage' us if everyone knew what kind of television we wish to watch is to simplify society to an absurd level. Why not just ask everyone not to have any opinions at all on any matter, then there wouldnt be anything to disagree about.
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  #51  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:38
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

What are we afraid of?

In a slightly off-topic sort of way I have a policy of not saying things behind peoples back that I wouldn't say to their face. If I think so and so is an idiot then I feel free to say it having thought through my reasons for thinking it.

Too many people are disrespectful of other people and say things out of hand that probably aren't true.

So, is it that I am afraid of knowing what people think of me or am I afraid that they might find out what I think of them. Is that why I want privacy?
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  #52  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:43
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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What are we afraid of?


So, is it that I am afraid of knowing what people think of me or am I afraid that they might find out what I think of them. Is that why I want privacy?
Neither are particularly important when it is just your feelings that will be burnt, so a simple "hey man, what are we all afraid of ?" sounds nice and sensible.

Consider a school dinnerlady that has a disabled child and to ensure that she has enough money to care for her siblings upbringing moonlights as an escort twice a week. Should she feel compelled to tell this to the school who will instantly dismiss her as it is against their policy ? Or in this case, is the keeping of the secret actually a greater moral good than a scientific "everyone is open" approach ?
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  #53  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:44
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

Nosy neighbours would be the least of our problems. For the system to be complete, this would inevitably require samples of DNA. You seem to be arguing that everyone should be having no secrets. Of the top of my mind that would mean employers would know when your looking for a new job. Potential employers would have access to the DNA data and doctors as well would insurance companies (who would inevitably want to discriminate based on these) potential employers would know how much you earn as well as who else your talking to.
We would be living like in the film Gattaca where your fate is decided by your DNA.

This will also affect your chances finding a partner. Your political opinions could also play a role getting certain jobs.



And regarding purely the police, can you imagine how many fines we'd get for the police knew everything we did? Also there'd be tons of pre emptive arrests based on a statement you made to a friend.

Besides I don't really see this connection to DB's thread. They got the guy without big brother. What you need is 2 twins like in the minority report.....
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  #54  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:50
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Besides I don't really see this connection to DB's thread. They got the guy without big brother. What you need is 2 twins like in the minority report.....
In DBs thread there were some points about the death penalty being wrong mainly because you can end up with the wrong guy. So I got to thinking that maybe if we guaranteed you got the right guy maybe the death penalty would be OK for people...
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  #55  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:51
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Neither are particularly important when it is just your feelings that will be burnt, so a simple "hey man, what are we all afraid of ?" sounds nice and sensible.

Consider a school dinnerlady that has a disabled child and to ensure that she has enough money to care for her siblings upbringing moonlights as an escort twice a week. Should she feel compelled to tell this to the school who will instantly dismiss her as it is against their policy ? Or in this case, is the keeping of the secret actually a greater moral good than a scientific "everyone is open" approach ?
Why should the school sack a person for being an escort on the side though? Unless of course it is against the law. In which case we can push for a change in the law.
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  #56  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:59
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Why should the school sack a person for being an escort on the side though? Unless of course it is against the law. In which case we can push for a change in the law.
I think it probably is against the law (lets say it is, for the sake of the discussion). Pushing for a change in the law will get you nowhere - the middle classes (who are all of course well off) would have none of it, the politicians would disown the idea. So unless this lady was allowed to keep this additional occupation secret, she would be sacked which would be to the detriment of her childs upbringing.

I am not sure she would share the same "greater good" view that its all just brilliant if we know everything about each other because we should have nothing to hide, when she cant afford for the care her child needs. You could tell her you've asked for a change in the law when she asks you how she will afford any more doctors appointments for her son - that might cheer her up.

It's an extreme example of course (though not out of the bounds of reality) but perhaps it takes such a graphic example to demonstrate that privacy is not just a matter of black and white. People want and need to keep things secret in society, because we are people and not just machines.
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  #57  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:02
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Yeah, the threat of being found and punished after the event would certainly stop suicide terrorists.
Which is why the police need special units with psychic powers.
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  #58  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:02
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

Yes, but of course I guess the main users of the escort services is the middle classes and polititians, so if we knew about their bad behaviour we could push for change....
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  #59  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:06
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

Here's a teacher doing something completely legal. Kept to her private life, but this isn't good enough, apparently.

EDIT: And another
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  #60  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:08
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Post your tax return here then.
that would re-start the debate on whether it is possible to survive on xxx CHF per year.
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