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  #61  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:09
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

Its attitudes we need to change
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  #62  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:09
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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...So I got to thinking that maybe if we guaranteed you got the right guy maybe the death penalty would be OK for people...
Not for me.

On topic to this thread, there are many things people would prefer to keep secret. The woman whose father abused her as a child, the man whose wife is addicted to painkillers developed after an accident leaving her in chronic pain (and the woman herself), people who may have sexual preferences which are perfectly legal but out of the norm, a man who has erectile disfunction, the list could go on and on.

The bottom line is that we're entitled to privacy, and the government shouldn't be monitoring anyone. After all, isn't it innocent until proven guilty?
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  #63  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:14
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Its attitudes we need to change


NO seriously, that does not follwo. You can extend to that to anything.

The basic reason for privacy is that you can do things away from people. That is why liberty and privacy are so related.
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  #64  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:14
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Its attitudes we need to change
I'm all for thinking we can changes attitutudes, to a certain extent, but where we can share everything about ourselves with everyone and no one ever makes judgerments?

Changing attitudes in order to implement a total surveillance society sounds like the worse form of dystopia to me.
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  #65  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:14
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Yes, but of course I guess the main users of the escort services is the middle classes and polititians, so if we knew about their bad behaviour we could push for change....
.... you could Nigel and as the politicians and middle classes make up the majority of the tax paying society it would get rejected as mentined before. So you could at least stand in the market square pronouncing that Escort services should not be illegal (which would be ignored) and that open societies are the best.

In the meantime, the lady who has lost her job due to this openness would be left with the matter of not having enough money, something a bit more of a real concern, so wouldnt be able to join you all for a large mocca at starbucks while you discuss the morals of the world.
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  #66  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:14
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Do the things that we want to be kept secret need to be kept secret? That is part of the question. Would it damage us if our boss/neighbour knew what sort of porn we watched? and if it does the wider question is why? Why are we quick to judge and be judged?

My personal take on things is that people are less interested in each other than you might at first think.
furthermore, it is often said that in terms of salaries, if people talked about them more freely there would be less injustice, discrimination etc by employers. Salary secrecy is permitting employers to offer different people different rewards for the same work without having to offer any explanation. Likewise, if everybody knew who watches what porn maybe we wouldn't be so embarrassed about it because we wouldn't be alone.
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  #67  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:17
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Likewise, if everybody knew who watches what porn maybe we wouldn't be so embarrassed about it because we wouldn't be alone.
or perhaps the 99% who watch 'regular' porn would ostracise the 1% that like to watch some extreme fetish end of the market. When before, when such knowledge was not public, they wouldnt have had such a predjudice.
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  #68  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:22
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Why should the school sack a person for being an escort on the side though?
Exactly, this is the problem. All people, including teachers, should be free to do as they like when they're off duty. The people who sacked her failed to distinguish between their own moral judgement and impartial justice. From here it's just a small step to fire teachers for their political views and so permitting a Big Brother style society.

Even if it is illegal, she shouldn't be fired for it any more than you can be fired for a parking fine, unless maybe the punishment entailed going to prison and that would make her unable to fulfill her duties as a teacher
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  #69  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:25
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

When I worked in Denmark we all had our salary's posted on the office wall. Made for some interesting discussions but that was about all.
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Old 20.07.2011, 16:27
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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When I worked in Denmark we all had our salary's posted on the office wall. Made for some interesting discussions but that was about all.
When I worked in Denmark, A guy plotted the assasination of his uncle by acting crazy. Next thing you know he gets sent to England, comes back, kills his uncle by poisioning and dies...

weird Denmark....
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  #71  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:27
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Exactly, this is the problem. All people, including teachers, should be free to do as they like when they're off duty. The people who sacked her failed to distinguish between their own moral judgement and impartial justice. From here it's just a small step to fire teachers for their political views and so permitting a Big Brother style society.
I would disagree - society sets moral boundaries. If society was completely free to do as it likes it would lose its moral compass. Continuing this growing example, if another teacher is nearing retirement, lets say he's 64, and he likes to hire prostitutes that are as close to the legal minimum age as possible, say 16 and 1 day. And he does this openly and is happy to talk to you about it when he see's you in the pub, will you still, honestly and genuinely, be happy to send your children to the school for their upbringing ? I am not sure you would, because you moral compass would suggest that there is too close an association with this activity and improper conduct. However if he keeps his activities secret, is a brilliant teacher and has a perfectly normal life apart from a penchant for young (but legal) women, then society continues as normal.

I can't win the argument, because logically we should have no secrets. But thats just not how society works.
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  #72  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:31
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

I'm not giving up, I just need to fetch my daughter and cook her dinner. Then I'll be back....
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  #73  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:32
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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When I worked in Denmark, A guy plotted the assasination of his uncle by acting crazy. Next thing you know he gets sent to England, comes back, kills his uncle by poisioning and dies...

weird Denmark....
yes, something rotten about it.
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  #74  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:38
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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I would disagree - society sets moral boundaries. If society was completely free to do as it likes it would lose its moral compass. Continuing this growing example, if another teacher is nearing retirement, lets say he's 64, and he likes to hire prostitutes that are as close to the legal minimum age as possible, say 16 and 1 day. And he does this openly and is happy to talk to you about it when he see's you in the pub, will you still, honestly and genuinely, be happy to send your children to the school for their upbringing ? I am not sure you would, because you moral compass would suggest that there is too close an association with this activity and improper conduct. However if he keeps his activities secret, is a brilliant teacher and has a perfectly normal life apart from a penchant for young (but legal) women, then society continues as normal.

I can't win the argument, because logically we should have no secrets. But thats just not how society works.
Hmmm, a difficult case. I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with such a guy teaching my kids. But objectively speaking, that alone doesn't make him a paedophile.

On the other hand, being a public figure raise the expectations society has of you. If some polician gets involved in a sex scandal the world is aghast. If it's Joe Bloggs from down the road people just laugh and it maybe gets pulled out again at the next Fasnacht and then forgotten about. In the former case, the gutter press will find out sooner or later because they have eras and eyes everywhere. In the latter case they still don't care.
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  #75  
Old 20.07.2011, 16:42
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Hmmm, a difficult case. I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with such a guy teaching my kids. But objectively speaking, that alone doesn't make him a paedophile.

On the other hand, being a public figure raise the expectations society has of you. If some polician gets involved in a sex scandal the world is aghast. If it's Joe Bloggs from down the road people just laugh and it maybe gets pulled out again at the next Fasnacht and then forgotten about. In the former case, the gutter press will find out sooner or later because they have eras and eyes everywhere. In the latter case they still don't care.
which is about right - and it's where society is today: if your in the public light, you need to watch your step, if your a regular punter of life, you can have secrets. Its not perfect, but it sort of works and if we alter it by introducing a big brother society it would be a step backwards, in my humble opinion.
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  #76  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:18
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

It doesn't matter which walk of life you live in, generally the people who condemn you are doing the same themselves - or would if they got the chance.

So why not be open about it and not worry...
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  #77  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:20
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

The whole big brother argument is basically we don't trust our neighbours because they are jealous or malicious and will spread gossip and we don't trust the government because they will stitch us up.

It all boils down to trusting people with information and not being afraid of it.
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  #78  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:23
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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It all boils down to trusting people with information and not being afraid of it.
Why don't you trust me with your bank details?
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  #79  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:24
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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Why don't you trust me with your bank details?
Pah at bank details. I want a complete map of his genome.
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  #80  
Old 20.07.2011, 17:30
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Re: Civil Liberties et al

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... and we don't trust the government because they will stitch us up.

It all boils down to trusting people with information and not being afraid of it.
and governments have proven themselves worthy of our trust?
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