Having followed DB's forgiveness thread it brought up a few points and rather than hijack that thread I thought I would start a new one.

The problem with the death penalty is that sometimes you get the wrong person (sometimes the wrong person even admits the crime). Nobody wants an innocent person killed or sent to prison for a long time and at the same time everybody wants the guilty person to be caught and punished.

Now, given that the above is probably true, what is it exactly that innocent law abiding citizens are against when it comes to identity cards, CCTV, and even tracking through facial recognition and mobile phone/email snooping?

If it means that the guilty person is always caught and punished and that the innocent are never wrongly accused, why not go for it?

Is whatever we're scared of enough to outweigh the positives? For most of us does it matter if the police/government knew where we shop and what we do and when etc?

The only thing I can think of is a dodgy government fitting up innocent people, but they already do that, so what's to lose?

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Life's what you make it, so let's make it better

ID cards will never stop a criminal from robbing a bank, murdering a child or stealing a bar of chocolate from the corner shop. They will also not stop a group of nutters from flying a plane full of passengers into a tower block.

So why have them then?

True, but if the police knew where everybody was at a given time, maybe it would stop a criminal from robbing a bank/old lady or stealing a car etc. With a 100% clean up rate wouldn't you be put off? I know I would.

Yeah, the threat of being found and punished after the event would certainly stop suicide terrorists.

Because when all's said and done Civil Liberties are positives in and of themselves. I'd much rather take the chance of being murdered than have a government CCTV camera in my bathroom watching me pee. And so would almost everyone else.

It probably wouldn't actually. But maybe most other criminals?

The police are people too, they could be your neighbours. Do you mind your neighbours poking into every detail of your life? You know, not just the lawbreaking stuff, but who you're seeing, what you're doing.

People who say they have nothing to hide are either lying, or boring.

I'll let Orwell speak through literature rather than argue out why I think this is an insane desire.

If I choose to sleep with my neighbour when my wife's at work then I should also be prepared for the fallout that goes with it. That's the whole point, if you knew upfront that you wouldn't be caught then maybe you wouldn't do it.

I'm also not sure that things are boring just because they are legal/moral etc. You can have a lot of fun without breaking the law or betraying your principles.

Oh ok, you're fine with the police havings powers to enforce moral behaviours too.

Hm, perhaps he'd like to bring back the Stasi, too.

I think this is what you meant

It'd be worse.

"look mate, you peed, you had the opportunity to use soap, but you just used water and the towel. It's your own doing. You knew the penalty was hard labour and you did it anyway. It's not our fault now is it? Come with us"

I have no problem with CCTV and ID cards. If it helps prevent crime and facilitates the identification of criminals, what has your average law-abiding Joe Public got to worry about? We all here live in a country where you have to carry some form of ID, I see no-one kicking up a huge fuss, or leaving in droves though.

Not the police, just the husband/wife/boyfriend divorce ruining everybody's life side of it.

I wonder what would happen if any of those naughty criminals carried fake ID? Thank goodness none of them are bright enough to think of that.

We could just put these helmets onto all the criminals and catch them in the act!

This is not just about ID cards, it's also about mobile phone tracking, implants for tracking, facial recognition, number plate recognition etc. Of course you can fake an ID card, but you wouldn't have a facelift, steal someone elses car/phone/wallet etc just to commit a crime. And of course if the system worked properly the authorities would also know this...