Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 20.07.2011, 12:48
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,712
Groaned at 118 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 2,140 Times in 942 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Civil Liberties et al

Having followed DB's forgiveness thread it brought up a few points and rather than hijack that thread I thought I would start a new one.

The problem with the death penalty is that sometimes you get the wrong person (sometimes the wrong person even admits the crime). Nobody wants an innocent person killed or sent to prison for a long time and at the same time everybody wants the guilty person to be caught and punished.

Now, given that the above is probably true, what is it exactly that innocent law abiding citizens are against when it comes to identity cards, CCTV, and even tracking through facial recognition and mobile phone/email snooping?

If it means that the guilty person is always caught and punished and that the innocent are never wrongly accused, why not go for it?

Is whatever we're scared of enough to outweigh the positives? For most of us does it matter if the police/government knew where we shop and what we do and when etc?

The only thing I can think of is a dodgy government fitting up innocent people, but they already do that, so what's to lose?
__________________
Life's what you make it, so let's make it better
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 20.07.2011, 12:51
grumpygrapefruit's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ZH
Posts: 6,395
Groaned at 38 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 17,624 Times in 4,508 Posts
grumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

ID cards will never stop a criminal from robbing a bank, murdering a child or stealing a bar of chocolate from the corner shop. They will also not stop a group of nutters from flying a plane full of passengers into a tower block.

So why have them then?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank grumpygrapefruit for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 20.07.2011, 12:54
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
The only thing I can think of is a dodgy government fitting up innocent people, but they already do that, so what's to lose?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Ouchboy for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 20.07.2011, 12:58
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,712
Groaned at 118 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 2,140 Times in 942 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
ID cards will never stop a criminal from robbing a bank, murdering a child or stealing a bar of chocolate from the corner shop. They will also not stop a group of nutters from flying a plane full of passengers into a tower block.

So why have them then?
True, but if the police knew where everybody was at a given time, maybe it would stop a criminal from robbing a bank/old lady or stealing a car etc. With a 100% clean up rate wouldn't you be put off? I know I would.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:00
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 9,131
Groaned at 170 Times in 153 Posts
Thanked 25,643 Times in 6,892 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
True, but if the police knew where everybody was at a given time, maybe it would stop a criminal from robbing a bank/old lady or stealing a car etc. With a 100% clean up rate wouldn't you be put off? I know I would.
Yeah, the threat of being found and punished after the event would certainly stop suicide terrorists.
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:00
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Because when all's said and done Civil Liberties are positives in and of themselves. I'd much rather take the chance of being murdered than have a government CCTV camera in my bathroom watching me pee. And so would almost everyone else.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:03
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,712
Groaned at 118 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 2,140 Times in 942 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
Yeah, the threat of being found and punished after the event would certainly stop suicide terrorists.
It probably wouldn't actually. But maybe most other criminals?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:30
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,904
Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 3,471 Times in 1,513 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

The police are people too, they could be your neighbours. Do you mind your neighbours poking into every detail of your life? You know, not just the lawbreaking stuff, but who you're seeing, what you're doing.

People who say they have nothing to hide are either lying, or boring.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank cyrus for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:34
evilshell's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, formerly Basel
Posts: 3,347
Groaned at 97 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 3,093 Times in 1,341 Posts
evilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
true, but if the police knew where everybody was at a given time, maybe it would stop a criminal from robbing a bank/old lady or stealing a car etc. With a 100% clean up rate wouldn't you be put off? I know i would.
I'll let Orwell speak through literature rather than argue out why I think this is an insane desire.

Quote:
down in the street little eddies of wind were whirling dust and torn paper into spirals, and though the sun was shining and the sky a harsh blue, there seemed to be no color in anything, except the posters that were plastered everywhere. The black mustachioed face gazed down from every commanding corner. There was one on the house-front immediately opposite. Big brother is watching you, the caption said, while the dark eyes looked deep into winston's own. Down at street level another poster, torn at one corner, flapped fitfully in the wind, alternately covering and uncovering the single word ingsoc.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank evilshell for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:36
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,712
Groaned at 118 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 2,140 Times in 942 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

If I choose to sleep with my neighbour when my wife's at work then I should also be prepared for the fallout that goes with it. That's the whole point, if you knew upfront that you wouldn't be caught then maybe you wouldn't do it.

I'm also not sure that things are boring just because they are legal/moral etc. You can have a lot of fun without breaking the law or betraying your principles.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:41
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,904
Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 3,471 Times in 1,513 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
If I choose to sleep with my neighbour when my wife's at work then I should also be prepared for the fallout that goes with it. That's the whole point, if you knew upfront that you wouldn't be caught then maybe you wouldn't do it.
Oh ok, you're fine with the police havings powers to enforce moral behaviours too.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank cyrus for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:43
evilshell's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, formerly Basel
Posts: 3,347
Groaned at 97 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 3,093 Times in 1,341 Posts
evilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Hm, perhaps he'd like to bring back the Stasi, too.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:44
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
If I choose to sleep with my neighbour when my wife's at work then I should also be prepared for the fallout that goes with it. That's the whole point, if you knew upfront that you would be caught then maybe you wouldn't do it.
I think this is what you meant
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:45
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Ouchboy for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:46
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
Hm, perhaps he'd like to bring back the Stasi, too.
It'd be worse.

"look mate, you peed, you had the opportunity to use soap, but you just used water and the towel. It's your own doing. You knew the penalty was hard labour and you did it anyway. It's not our fault now is it? Come with us"
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:47
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

I have no problem with CCTV and ID cards. If it helps prevent crime and facilitates the identification of criminals, what has your average law-abiding Joe Public got to worry about? We all here live in a country where you have to carry some form of ID, I see no-one kicking up a huge fuss, or leaving in droves though.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:48
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,712
Groaned at 118 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 2,140 Times in 942 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
Oh ok, you're fine with the police havings powers to enforce moral behaviours too.
Not the police, just the husband/wife/boyfriend divorce ruining everybody's life side of it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:51
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Civil Liberties et al

I wonder what would happen if any of those naughty criminals carried fake ID? Thank goodness none of them are bright enough to think of that.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:55
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
I wonder what would happen if any of those naughty criminals carried fake ID? Thank goodness none of them are bright enough to think of that.
We could just put these helmets onto all the criminals and catch them in the act!

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 20.07.2011, 13:55
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,712
Groaned at 118 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 2,140 Times in 942 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Civil Liberties et al

Quote:
View Post
I wonder what would happen if any of those naughty criminals carried fake ID? Thank goodness none of them are bright enough to think of that.
This is not just about ID cards, it's also about mobile phone tracking, implants for tracking, facial recognition, number plate recognition etc. Of course you can fake an ID card, but you wouldn't have a facelift, steal someone elses car/phone/wallet etc just to commit a crime. And of course if the system worked properly the authorities would also know this...
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Corruption, Civil Liberties 'n' Stuff Guest International affairs/politics 12 05.12.2010 15:57
Cancer... et al, in various forms evianers Family matters/health 15 02.12.2010 13:29
Civil liberties in Switzerland jmac Swiss politics/news 95 13.09.2009 11:56
Further erosion of British civil liberties Castro International affairs/politics 4 05.01.2009 20:38


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0