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  #181  
Old 24.07.2011, 23:55
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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I think it would be incorrect to infer that Bin Laden represented all muslims. There were muslims along with people from many different religions that died in the towers and in all of the terrorist actions Bin Laden masterminded. It is interesting how this event has triggered the debate about whether muslims are the only ones committing terrorist acts, an argument that should have never gained any credibility from day one.

@higgybaby: first person shooter games have come under fire ever since Columbine
"I think it would be incorrect to infer that Bin Laden represented all muslims."

i think there was an intended hint of irony on that post
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  #182  
Old 25.07.2011, 09:23
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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When I heard the news, I said to myself "Timothy McVie, Oklahoma City", which turned out to be a good call. Scandanavia has always had a small number of loony nazis.

The norwegian political forum document.no has done a great job putting together all of our man's posts there into one long document. They have just posted that he copied the american terrorist Unabomber's manifest word for word, changing only "leftist" into "multicultural Marxist". Nuff said.

Looks like there is little else to do, apart from mourn the dead and keep the nutter in prison for the rest of his life. Maybe tighten Norwegian law to make it a less free and innocent country.
+100 to all of that.

But let me extend my condolences to whoever may have had friends or family missing in thes tragedy.

It is also sadly true that post 9/11 there is a global knee-jerk reaction, a pavlovian stimulus, that cries out Al Quaeda whenever a bomb strikes.

Reality is that most of the hideous crimes are home bred.
Oklahoma comes to mind, but in Italy we've had so many bombing attacks that were perpetrated by "our" people - right or left wing terrorists, mafia, and supposedly from the secret services themselves....scary.
All people with a deranged agenda, "normal folks" who can go undetected for years and who will eventually commit the same crime which they believe will be carried out by "foreign" extremists (OK - Italy is pretty much the exception, here).

And I'm afraid there appears to be no solution, barring some kind of scarier "thought police"...

Peace

Paul
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  #183  
Old 25.07.2011, 10:09
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

So now it seems that the issue is for the judge to decide if his statements he gives are to be made in public or not broadcast.
I would guess that the families of those who have died would want to hear it.
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  #184  
Old 25.07.2011, 10:11
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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So now it seems that the issue is for the judge to decide if his statements he gives are to be made in public or not broadcast.
I would guess that the families of those who have died would want to hear it.
They'd want to hear but rather he not preach his doctrine to the whole world.
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  #185  
Old 25.07.2011, 15:00
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Whilst agreeing that it is obviously not appropriate to judge all Muslims as fanatical terrorists, the thing that most disturbs me is the lengths to which extreme Muslim terrorists are prepared to go in the name of their faith. I am talking specifically about the use of men, women and children as human suicide bombers.

Incidentally, this no worse than the attrocities perpetrated by right-wing Christian terrorists. However, incidents such as the recent one in Norway seem to be more isolated.
More isolated also were deeds of Muslim terrorists , and then it became a disease. So, let's hope it stays "more isolated". Suicide attacks were something known from Sri Lanka and other places in Asia, and then it suddenly got accross to Iraq and Palestine.
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  #186  
Old 25.07.2011, 15:06
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Totally awful events, that I only found out about while driving from York to Folkestone in the UK yesterday. It was interesting how the headline changed over time (on BBC Radio 4) - from Christian Fundementalist to Norwegian Nationalist. The newspapers on Saturday (obviously unable to be as up-to-date yesterday) seemed fairly sure it was an Al-Qaeda inspired incident.

The headlines changed according to the significance of the news. While there was the possibility that this was a Christian Fundamentalist attack, then that was the important point - precisely because of Islamist terrorists. When it became clear that he was a right-wing ideology inspired nutter rather than a religious nutter, then the "nationalist" aspect became more important.

It saddens me that the religion-bashers used this as an excuse to do some more bashing. No cause is so right and good that it doesn't attract a few evil bastards to it.
But why did they jump to "Norwegian nationalist" ?? Anti-Muslim yes, European Supremacist yes, anti-leftwing yes, but nothing of "Norwegian Nationalist" really. Some talk about being "Christian-Conservative" yes.
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  #187  
Old 25.07.2011, 15:10
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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"I think it would be incorrect to infer that Bin Laden represented all muslims."

i think there was an intended hint of irony on that post
I do not see any irony there. I mean, Bin Laden represented himself and his organisation and some private business interests, but nobody else. He was just a politically radicalized business tycoon with some weird ideas and lots of money
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  #188  
Old 25.07.2011, 15:14
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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But why did they jump to "Norwegian nationalist" ?? Anti-Muslim yes, European Supremacist yes, anti-leftwing yes, but nothing of "Norwegian Nationalist" really. Some talk about being "Christian-Conservative" yes.
To lazy journalists that's all one and the same thing, apparently.

Why bother the populace of little brain with the subtle differences between different types of bad people?
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  #189  
Old 25.07.2011, 15:44
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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To lazy journalists that's all one and the same thing, apparently.
I'd say it goes so fast that the journalists are forced to publish and update very very quickly. The country in question being Norwegian speaking, many journalists relied on the first translation they had instead of getting the original version and getting it translated by competent people they trust in. Understandable but it's a shame, I agree.

The christianfoundentalist thing originates from the words of the police, in Norwegian, who reported that he describes himself as christian, nationalist and conservative. The three words were used. It's hard to keep controle of how they are combined together later on around the world. Adding the true info that he alsways voted for the most conservative candidate in church elections, but we are talking Norwegian state churche here so "most conservative" is not as conservative as the moderate ones in many places. On top of that, he pleaded for a collective conversion back to catholicism. That makes "conservative" very hard to define in his case.

The words travel around in the media, not the context. Journalists should checke and double check... but is it nowadays possible to do that work properly when news updates have to be "real time"? In this case, it is if one speaks Norwegian, otherwise, it isn't.
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  #190  
Old 25.07.2011, 16:19
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Norway has a maximum jail term of 21 years. Though I don't think it would take too much creativity to give 91 consecutive 21 year terms. I hope.
Maybe they can show some leniency and reduce his sentence to 91 consecutive 2 year terms.

As you said, one can hope.
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  #191  
Old 25.07.2011, 16:46
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Maybe they can show some leniency and reduce his sentence to 91 consecutive 2 year terms.

As you said, one can hope.

actually the Norwegian sites claim that he can be jailed indefinitely:

Forvaring kan føre til fengsel livet ut, på grunn av at den opprinnelige dommen kan bli forlenget et uavgrenset antall ganger.

Preventive detention can lead to imprisonment for life, because the original sentence can be extended for an indefinite number of times.
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  #192  
Old 25.07.2011, 17:19
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

You mean http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring ?
The dangerousity of the prisonar will be assessed and will be free if the judges consider there is no danger of repetition of the crime he was condamned for. Otherwise, prolongation of emprisonment will be decided. Typically a potential case with this murderer, as they are talking serious fundamental danger for society.
This applies if the prisonar was condamned on the base that he was in full controle of his capacities. If the prisonar is considered psychologically ill, then closed psychatric institutions take over.
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  #193  
Old 25.07.2011, 17:35
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

Yes - high risk of repetition and risk to society most certainly, considering the nature of his crime.
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  #194  
Old 25.07.2011, 17:39
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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You mean http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring ?
The dangerousity of the prisonar will be assessed and will be free if the judges consider there is no danger of repetition of the crime he was condamned for. Otherwise, prolongation of emprisonment will be decided. Typically a potential case with this murderer, as they are talking serious fundamental danger for society.
This applies if the prisonar was condamned on the base that he was in full controle of his capacities. If the prisonar is considered psychologically ill, then closed psychatric institutions take over.
Hmm, good. That sounds appropriate.
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  #195  
Old 25.07.2011, 17:43
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Yes - high risk of repetition and risk to society most certainly, considering the nature of his crime.
That will be topic of discussion in 20 years. This case is so unique (?unic) that the treatment of it probably will push the system to its limits and the debate about justice will be vivid for long. I guess though that the non confrontational nature of Norwegian culture will lead to a pause in the whole thing when he is condamned and jailed for as long as the sentence goes. Going back to normality is in my eyes the first priority for the Norwegians themselves, first of all in order to win over the nature of the murderer's goal, and secondly in order to regain their self-proclaimed paradise. This is totally understandable to me and I wish them exactly that.
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Last edited by Faltrad; 25.07.2011 at 17:54. Reason: spelling
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  #196  
Old 25.07.2011, 17:45
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

In the back of my mind is the niggling thought - if something as inexplicable as this self rightous wanker could happen in Norway, could it happen here? Scary thought
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  #197  
Old 25.07.2011, 19:41
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Re: Explosion in Oslo



A picture of the heartless bastard smiling as he leave court.
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  #198  
Old 25.07.2011, 22:07
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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In the back of my mind is the niggling thought - if something as inexplicable as this self rightous wanker could happen in Norway, could it happen here? Scary thought

It could happen anywhere, and one of us could very easily be the perpetrator.
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  #199  
Old 25.07.2011, 22:17
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

It could happen anywhere - but I am absolutely sure I couldn't be the perpetrator. And I believe most here would find it abhorrent that that could be a possibility, sorry DB. Very easily, NO absolutely NO.
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Old 25.07.2011, 22:23
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

The Zug massacre is still fresh in my thoughts. How many people died or were injured?
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