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  #221  
Old 27.07.2011, 11:54
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

What really wonder me and what is very interesting is all medias before they know who made it , they put big title TERROR ATTACK , QUAADA ATTCK ...., even the Norway police claimed it is muslim terrorist job but once the find out it is Norway guy no one even use the word terror anymore ! and it looks like nothing happened !


That's indeed very interesting
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  #222  
Old 27.07.2011, 12:31
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

I don't know if this translates very nicely, but a Dutch saying goes: "Man suffers most from the suffering which he fears".

The fear for new Al Qaeeda terrorist attacks, either or not as a result of US/NATO involvement in Muslem countries, provokes a pointing finger in that direction for every criminal action against whatever group of people. In their uncertainty, people tend to judge too quickly because it seems to be easier to be (unjustifiably) confident than to be insecure.

Even now this Breivik guy is arrested, people will still connect his actions with the age old conflict between Christians and Muslims. Man obviously needs an opponent to justify his own beliefs...
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  #223  
Old 27.07.2011, 12:34
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Should the prisoner be allowed to take his own life in his cell, encouraged with "useful accessories" to aid his departure? It sounds brutal, but it's not capital punishment. We are challenged to cope with the aftermath after mass slayings, be they in humanitarian courts in the Netherlands or court rooms around the world. The crimes are so dreadful that no amount of potential punishment could ever offset. We can only live in hope that sanity prevails.
The thought of this guy getting off 'lightly' by committing suicide is disheartening. The punishment should reflect the crime and in his case there is no amount of suffering he can endure that will even start to realise the pain he has caused.

30 years jail for what he did is ridiculous. He should be strapped to a bed in a dark room for the rest of his life.
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  #224  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:01
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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The thought of this guy getting off 'lightly' by committing suicide is disheartening. The punishment should reflect the crime and in his case there is no amount of suffering he can endure that will even start to realise the pain he has caused.

30 years jail for what he did is ridiculous. He should be strapped to a bed in a dark room for the rest of his life.
This is no longer about punishment. There's no effective punishment that could be metered out to this guy that would be acceptable in a humane and civil society. This is now about how to most effectively protect the public from this man, and also how to effectively protect this man from the public.

The terms of 21, 23 and 30 years are being banded around simply because there is no precedent under Norwegian law of any longer term being necessary. However, even given my extremely limited knowledge of Norwegian law, I'm sure there's some clause that will enable an offender to be incarcerated for a continuing and unspecified length of time past that of the original sentence (if there isn't then I'm guessing there will be one soon). Criminally insane comes to mind as a possibility. Also, even if they can't brand him as a danger to the public forever, the public will always be a danger to him, leading to a requirement to continue to hold him for his own safety. That would effectively mean the rest of his life will be spent behind bars.
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  #225  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:28
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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We had a really good neighbour where we lived when our kids were young. Her OH was also very kind, but quiet and at times moody. We are still in touch with his son, and he showed us letters written by his dad when he was a young man (almost a kid still at 19) serving in bomber command. His constant use of 'Gerry really got it last night' are blood chilling (after the bombing of Hamburg). Civilians, old-people and children, 1000s of them, just de-humanised by one single word for the enemy 'Gerry'. One of his letters ended with how he was very scared and excited at the same time.. then 'well, it was worth it for double rations of eggs and bacon on return'. As said, chilling to read- and he was such a kind man. His wife believed his mood swings were due to what he went through during the war.

So yes, I see what you mean. But this is very very different. Yes it could happen anywhere.
Higgybaby, you are of course perfectly entitled to 'groan' me anytime and I respect this. But would you mind explaining why, I'd like to understand your reasons. Thanks in advance.
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  #226  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:36
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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One more thing, Odile. Wolli can give more details but I think Swiss cities like Zurich were mistakenly bombed by the Allies. 40 people were killed in a bombing raid over Schaffhausen (it's on the north bank of the Rhine River---that's probably why the Americans thought it was a German city) and the U.S. paid CH $4M in restitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

P.S. A link to Schaffhausen's page on wikipedia says even more people died in the bombings---over 100 civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schaffhausen
The trouble with those bombers over Schaffhausen was that they in deep fog had flown much too far, and the bulk-leaders realized that they with the full load of bombs would not manage the return flight, so that they "unloaded" over what they perceived as the first German city enroute. The number of deads was more than 100 . That the attack happened by mistake becomes clear if you see that exactly the industrial areas were NOT attacked.

In a deal ironed out between US President Harry Truman and Schaffhausen City President Walter Bringolf, the USA directly took over bills, for example for repairs on indirectly damaged houses, for longtime cures of people with injuries and so in the end amounted to a far higher amount than originally promised by FDR . For example, somebody owning a house some two kilometers north of the railstation, who could give evidence that the house had got splits in walls, got directly paid by the US embassy.

In case of Zurich, it differed a bit. First of all, the bombardments were clearly minimal, and one of them by coincidence just affected the house of the man who widely was regarded as the CH NSDAP rep. In all two or three bombardments, less than 12 airplanes were involved.

In Basel, the allied forces who wanted to bomb the German Basel-Bad-Bhf by error attacked Basel-SBB, which resulted in the cargo-area of Basel-Bad-Bhf having been THE cargo-train-station of Basel even into the 1970ies. The idea of the bombers-commanders in reality was to interrupt the German cargo trains on the Basel-Chiasso corridor.

Those bombers-commanders were not idiots, but had no radar, no direct wireless communication and had to operate "on sight"
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  #227  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:40
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Yes I always thought it was linked to the Swiss supplying Germany with war materials & was somehow a warning? I believe a successfull warning
If so, as unsuccessful as anything can be. Companies like Bührle made deliveries to Nazi Germany heavily into 1945
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  #228  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:48
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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I don't know if this translates very nicely, but a Dutch saying goes: "Man suffers most from the suffering which he fears".

The fear for new Al Qaeeda terrorist attacks, either or not as a result of US/NATO involvement in Muslem countries, provokes a pointing finger in that direction for every criminal action against whatever group of people. In their uncertainty, people tend to judge too quickly because it seems to be easier to be (unjustifiably) confident than to be insecure.

Even now this Breivik guy is arrested, people will still connect his actions with the age old conflict between Christians and Muslims. Man obviously needs an opponent to justify his own beliefs...
No, the US-NATO involvement in Muslim countries is a rather minor aspect. What however DID infuriate Osama Bin Laden was the US-presence in the Saudi el-Hasa province, which was clearly in violation of the KSA constitution of 1932 . But in general, terrorism of elQaeda and similar organisations is aimed against the majority of Arab people who do not show any desire to adopt a fundamentalist way of life, and of course against the state leaders who with the exceptions of the KSA and Sharjah refuse those notions as well.

The terrorist in Norway was opposed to both immigration of Muslims into Europe and leftwing parties promoting their agenda.

He so at least shares the anti-Socialist sentiments with the elQaeda leadership
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  #229  
Old 27.07.2011, 14:57
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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We had a really good neighbour where we lived when our kids were young. Her OH was also very kind, but quiet and at times moody. We are still in touch with his son, and he showed us letters written by his dad when he was a young man (almost a kid still at 19) serving in bomber command. His constant use of 'Gerry really got it last night' are blood chilling (after the bombing of Hamburg). Civilians, old-people and children, 1000s of them, just de-humanised by one single word for the enemy 'Gerry'. One of his letters ended with how he was very scared and excited at the same time.. then 'well, it was worth it for double rations of eggs and bacon on return'. As said, chilling to read- and he was such a kind man. His wife believed his mood swings were due to what he went through during the war.

So yes, I see what you mean. But this is very very different. Yes it could happen anywhere.
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Higgybaby, you are of course perfectly entitled to 'groan' me anytime and I respect this. But would you mind explaining why, I'd like to understand your reasons. Thanks in advance.
Hi Odile,

I'll try.

I don't really see the relevance of bringing up the the above example of someone who was conscripted and forced to fight in a World War with millions of comrades, against a genocidal foe, where being a conscientious objector was almost perceived as being sympathetic to the enemy and being told exactly what you had to do, is not so helpful in the context of the circumstances of Anders Breivik's actions.
I think the above example more illustrates the residue of a coping mechanism. Which might be more pertinent to the Nowegian survivors and populous. And I don't think it's fair to point out this old boy, as an example of how a nation learned to cope in the horror of war compared to one nutterms road to hatred..
Nothing personal. I like your posts a lot normally Odile. You may have been trying to convey how people learn to hate, but I think there are probably better examples. in my opinion.
Plus I've seen other threads spiral off tangent about carpet bombings in WW2 etc in other threads and I think that caused me to sigh a groan, "Oh. No. Not again."
Hope that helps.

HiggyBaby
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  #230  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:36
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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That would effectively mean the rest of his life will be spent behind bars.
I cannot help wondering about the costs of lifelong imprisonment. I am certainly not an advocate for death penalties, but this money could be so much better spent. Anyone willing to share some thoughts on this?
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  #231  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:43
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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I cannot help wondering about the costs of lifelong imprisonment. I am certainly not an advocate for death penalties, but this money could be so much better spent. Anyone willing to share some thoughts on this?
It's cheaper to keep someone alive in prison for life than to execute them, Mainly because you don't have the lawyers fees to pay for all the appeals!
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  #232  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:44
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

Form what I've read the maximum sentence he can get is 21 years. If he's deemed to still be a threat to society, then this can be extended in 5 year blocks.

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Old 27.07.2011, 16:48
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Form what I've read the maximum sentence he can get is 21 years. If he's deemed to still be a thread to society, then this can be extended in 5 year blocks.
If the do him on crimes against humanity, then it could be 30 but whether that crime will stick is another matter!
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  #234  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:55
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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If the do him on crimes against humanity, then it could be 30 but whether that crime will stick is another matter!
I don't see this as a crime against humanity.

He's entitled to a fair trial and to be prosecuted within the extent of the law. Putting him in prison until he dies won't un kill his victims.
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Old 27.07.2011, 16:58
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

Thanks for explaining very well Higgybaby, I am grateful for that.
And I can see exactly what you mean, and I agree. We often react due to personal experiences that have made a big impression on us. What I was trying to convey, is how even very normal, kind, generous people, can attack targets made up off civilians, children, old people 'innocents' by having the enemy de-humanised either by themselves or their leaders. Our neighbour died about 15 years ago- and is unlikely to be identified here. The fact he was such a nice man and yet pulled the leaver to obliterate entire towns- and then 'joked' about double rations of eggs and bacon- shows the mechanism of de-humanising war - and how people use 'banale and hard humour' to deal with the effects. The fact he was fighting what most people nowadays consider to have been one of the very few 'just' wars- does not take away from the mechanisms of de-humanising. He clearly suffered all his life of flash backs and feelings of guilt, and it was very difficult at times for his wife and children to understand the mood swings that followed. This is of course very well documented in people returning from any front. My post followed DB's post about the potential in any of us to kill, even innocents. in the belief that the cause is right. Not sure if it makes any sense.
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  #236  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:59
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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I don't see this as a crime against humanity.

He's entitled to a fair trial and to be prosecuted within the extent of the law. Putting him in prison until he dies won't un kill his victims.
All I am quoting is what I have read on the BBC that the Norwegian authorities were considering this. I too believe that it is not a crime against humanity but I am no expert on Norwegian law!
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Old 27.07.2011, 17:00
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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All I am quoting is what I have read on the BBC that the Norwegian authorities were considering this. I too believe that it is not a crime against humanity but I am no expert on Norwegian law!
No need to crack out the exclamation mark mate! We are all just having a civilised discussion here.
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  #238  
Old 27.07.2011, 17:07
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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No need to crack out the exclamation mark mate! We are all just having a civilised discussion here.
One exclamation mark hardly makes it uncivilised does it?
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  #239  
Old 27.07.2011, 17:26
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

Porsche I agree that he is entitled to a fair trial - but a crime against humanity it is, surely. Shooting people in cold blood, like rabbits, because they have different attitudes to politics, including immigration, must be.
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Old 27.07.2011, 17:28
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Porsche I agree that he is entitled to a fair trial - but a crime against humanity it is, surely. Shooting people in cold blood, like rabbits, because they have different attitudes to politics, including immigration, must be.
Good point, I suppose it was an execution without trial, which does make it a crime against humanity!
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