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  #241  
Old 27.07.2011, 18:16
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Listened to some "legal experts" on DRS3 this morning. Got me wondering how our penal system can wield an appropriate punishment to people who slaughter innocents as opposed to clear murder cases (family dramas, revenge, love etc.).

Apparently the maximum life sentence for murder in Norway is 23 years or they could try the "crimes against humanity" ticket which could extend that to 30 years.

And therein lies the problem. I cannot accept the death penalty as part of a civilized democracy, but how do we expect our judges to sentence atrocities which aren't covered under the normal confines of the law? The law foresees punishment for crimes and the subsequent rehabilitation of the culprit. In a case such as Norway or where indiscriminate slaying occurs, how can we match the crime? We cannot. No one will want to see the Norwegian murderer released, ever, period. But his legacy will build and may well become a focal point for other idiots with extremist views, possibly even becoming an icon much like Rudolf Hess in Spandau was.

Should the prisoner be allowed to take his own life in his cell, encouraged with "useful accessories" to aid his departure? It sounds brutal, but it's not capital punishment. We are challenged to cope with the aftermath after mass slayings, be they in humanitarian courts in the Netherlands or court rooms around the world. The crimes are so dreadful that no amount of potential punishment could ever offset. We can only live in hope that sanity prevails.
Here the relevant law :

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/311_0/a112.html

it simply is murder

the prisons are NOT allowed to support any kind of sucide but are ordered to prevent suicide

"mass slayings" legally are multiple murder
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  #242  
Old 27.07.2011, 18:25
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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are particularly odious offenses in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. However, murder, extermination, torture, rape, political, racial, or religious persecution and other inhumane acts reach the threshold of crimes against humanity only if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice. Isolated inhumane acts of this nature may constitute grave infringements of human rights, or depending on the circumstances, war crimes, but may fall short of meriting the stigma attaching to the category of crimes under discussion. On the other hand, an individual may be guilty of crimes against humanity even if he perpetrates one or two of the offences mentioned above, or engages in one such offense against only a few civilians, provided those offenses are part of a consistent pattern of misbehavior by a number of persons linked to that offender (for example, because they engage in armed action on the same side or because they are parties to a common plan or for any similar reason.) Consequently when one or more individuals are not accused of planning or carrying out a policy of inhumanity, but simply of perpetrating specific atrocities or vicious acts, in order to determine whether the necessary threshold is met one should use the following test: one ought to look at these atrocities or acts in their context and verify whether they may be regarded as part of an overall policy or a consistent pattern of an inhumanity, or whether they instead constitute isolated or sporadic acts of cruelty and wickedness.[1]

It just doesn't fit into the definition IMO.
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  #243  
Old 27.07.2011, 18:36
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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It just doesn't fit into the definition IMO.
I can't see them making it stick but I suppose they have to look up every avenue.
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  #244  
Old 27.07.2011, 18:43
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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I can't see them making it stick but I suppose they have to look up every avenue.
They have to prosecute him for the crime he committed. Not find some loophole to keep him in prison for as long as they can.
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  #245  
Old 27.07.2011, 18:45
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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They have to prosecute him for the crime he committed. Not find some loophole to keep him in prison for as long as they can.
They also need to keep the people safe from him.
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  #246  
Old 27.07.2011, 19:43
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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They also need to keep the people safe from him.
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Form what I've read the maximum sentence he can get is 21 years. If he's deemed to still be a threat to society, then this can be extended in 5 year blocks.
Who said they didn't?
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  #247  
Old 27.07.2011, 19:46
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Who said they didn't?
Well left to you he'd be out tomorrow!
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  #248  
Old 27.07.2011, 19:58
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Who said they didn't?
I the Staes he'd be on death row, In China dead within a month in the Uk would die in prison. Why do you question Norway for trying to find a way of keeping evil off the streets?
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  #249  
Old 27.07.2011, 20:17
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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I the Staes he'd be on death row, In China dead within a month in the Uk would die in prison. Why do you question Norway for trying to find a way of keeping evil off the streets?
As long as he is a threat to the public he will be in prison under Norwegian law.


I don't think countries should change their laws due to isolated incidences. By putting him on death row do you think that will discourage or encourage more right wing terrorists? He will simply be a martyr.

Regardless of what heinous crimes one commits, what separates us from the evil is how we treat them.
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  #250  
Old 27.07.2011, 20:26
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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As long as he is a threat to the public he will be in prison under Norwegian law.


I don't think countries should change their laws due to isolated incidences. By putting him on death row do you think that will discourage or encourage more right wing terrorists? He will simply be a martyr.

Regardless of what heinous crimes one commits, what separates us from the evil is how we treat them.
Did I say put him on death row? No I did not!!
All I said was let Norway decide what Norway wants to do and it isn't for a Brit to question and to tell them what to do. If Norway want to try him for crimes against humanity, it can and whether you agree or not makes no difference.
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  #251  
Old 27.07.2011, 21:02
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

Norway should only put him up for crimes against humanity if he has committed a crime against humanity.

If they trial him for crimes against humanity they will lose the trial. If they put him up for trial for what he actually did, they will convict him.

Under the Rome statute he has not committed a crime against humanity. Am I getting through to you?
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  #252  
Old 27.07.2011, 21:17
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Norway should only put him up for crimes against humanity if he has committed a crime against humanity.

If they trial him for crimes against humanity they will lose the trial. If they put him up for trial for what he actually did, they will convict him.

Under the Rome statute he has not committed a crime against humanity. Am I getting through to you?
So all of a sudden you know more than Norwegian lawyers??
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  #253  
Old 27.07.2011, 21:36
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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So all of a sudden you know more than Norwegian lawyers??
Give your sources in Norwegian, I'll translate for you. From what I have heard so far, Porsch is right on the premises. I have not read anything about the Norwegian police saying publically if the definition of crime against humanity can apply based on Norwegian understanding of both own laws and constitution and of international treates and conventions signed by Norway.
Breivik has been arrested under the terrorist-paragraph but the crime still has to be defined. Christian Hatlo, from the police said at one point that they were doing a bit of thinking because it is a serial murdering of people for a political and social opinion, which may come close to the idea of crime against humanity. But it is only a part of the reflection... the police didn't elaborate on those thougths yet.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ir...cle4183973.ece
http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/innenriks/...n-3546143.html

If you have more in Norwegian, I'll read it and explain it to you if you want.
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  #254  
Old 27.07.2011, 21:43
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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So all of a sudden you know more than Norwegian lawyers??
Yes I do. They are useless.
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  #255  
Old 27.07.2011, 21:56
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

The whole suicide question has been discussed because journalists interviewed his father and he is the one who said his son should take his own life.
http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/utenriks/b...v-3545669.html
The discussion about punishment is natural in the after-shock phase. There is a strong emphasis on the uniqueness of his act. Therefore some people talking in the public debate defend the idea that Norwegian law was not made to face such an attack, the parliaement never considered this possibility into the law books, thus to them, judging him would be finding the "best fit" approach, not judging him exactly for what he did because the exact crime is not in the crime list. That leads to the argument that any charge would be approximate, thus the goal of the protection of society should count more than the exact definition. This is understandible but this is just a public debate. The judges and the police probably thinking about this topic very deeply at the moment.

We have to wait if the Norwegian justice go for that argument or if they stay within the legal frame of murder, well aware of the tools they have to assess how dangerous he is when he would normally have the right to be free. We'll see...
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  #256  
Old 27.07.2011, 22:06
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

Would he get 21 years for each murder he committed though?
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  #257  
Old 27.07.2011, 22:18
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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I cannot help wondering about the costs of lifelong imprisonment. I am certainly not an advocate for death penalties, but this money could be so much better spent. Anyone willing to share some thoughts on this?
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It's cheaper to keep someone alive in prison for life than to execute them, Mainly because you don't have the lawyers fees to pay for all the appeals!
Than why tolerate all these appeals? I understand that lawyers also need to make a living, but aren't we making crime too costly overall?
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  #258  
Old 27.07.2011, 22:20
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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Would he get 21 years for each murder he committed though?
No, there is no "convictions adding" in Norway. The longest conviction gives the time frame of emprisonement. Is there a European country that adds all the convictions for each crime? I genuinely don't know.
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  #259  
Old 27.07.2011, 23:47
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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The whole suicide question has been discussed because journalists interviewed his father and he is the one who said his son should take his own life.
http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/utenriks/b...v-3545669.html
Strange the BBC posted a story on the same day about an interview with the father and they said something different.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14288184
Are you sure? I don't read Norwegian.
The BBC article says that the father said it would have been better if his son had commited suicide, not that it would be best if he now does commit suicide.
Quite different.

As a father I can understand he might think it better for his son's (and possibly his famil's) sake, even though he has disowned him, moved to France and hasn't seen his son for years anyway.
But to keep favour with his Norwegian people I doubt he'd want to encourage his son to deny the Norwegian nation a trial (if only to unearth more facts).
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  #260  
Old 28.07.2011, 00:24
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Re: Explosion in Oslo

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No, there is no "convictions adding" in Norway. The longest conviction gives the time frame of emprisonement. Is there a European country that adds all the convictions for each crime? I genuinely don't know.
I am NOT a lawyer and so do NOT know it. But most of the jurisdiction in continental Europe is the Napoleonic jurisdiction. Which means that you cannot have repeated sentences. A one-life-term is definitely just a one-life-term. The weird idea of having several sentences behing each other as in the USA is not in use in countries respecting the legal state.
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