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-   -   What to do so people stop hating the UK? (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/121339-what-do-so-people-stop-hating-uk.html)

simon_ch 08.08.2011 15:50

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Brilliant: A Rumanian and a Frenchman discussing how to put the United Kingdom right.

I love the EF! :D
I know, it's ridiculous, the only solution is a Swiss dictator, innit?

CorsebouTheReturn 08.08.2011 15:54

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1292825)
Brilliant: A Rumanian and a Frenchman discussing how to put the United Kingdom right.

I know, it's ridiculous, the only solution is a Swiss dictator, innit?

http://www.understandfrance.org/Imag...Guillotine.jpg

...
Let's start your reign :D

:rolleyes:

08.08.2011 16:44

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Brilliant: A Rumanian and a Frenchman discussing how to put the United Kingdom right.

I love the EF! :D
And you are a Brit ( also now American?) discussing how to put Switzerland right.

Guest 08.08.2011 16:45

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppy (Post 1292894)
And you are a Brit ( also now American?) discussing how to put Switzerland right.

Er... where? :confused:

greenmount 08.08.2011 16:50

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Brilliant: A Rumanian and a Frenchman discussing how to put the United Kingdom right.

I love the EF! :D
No, not really, it was one of the endless, useless and many a times disscusions on utopian things Rumanians enjoy to have. Harmless, really.:msnblush::p

colinwheeler 08.08.2011 17:55

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1292768)
hate the UK

Perhaps what some have not figured out yet is that is is our nature to hate the UK and it is our nature to shout at each other because we hate the UK and we should not, but damn it all, we enjoy hating the UK and shouting at each other because we should not hate the UK. Why does everybody want to keep changing our culture. Have some sensitivity folks!:p

cannut 08.08.2011 23:44

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppy (Post 1292894)
And you are a Brit ( also now American?) discussing how to put Switzerland right.

Not yet ,but he is standing in line ;)7 years standing in line:confused:

henrytkhau 09.08.2011 02:41

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Start by rigging the Foot Locker in Brixton with TNT and putting up a sign saying "Looters welcome"


Replace Big Brother with Capital punishment. In public
Withdraw from all foreign wars
Forced amputations or organ donations for career criminals
Deport repeat offenders to an island that is regularly nuked from orbit, just to be sure
Stop all benefits
Performance measures for politicians
Flat rate tax
Only allow skilled or rich immigrants
Auto-deport immigrants that commit a crime
Harsh beatings for unruly pupils
End the compensation culture
Only give university places to high achievers
Severely restrict buy-to-let

cannut 09.08.2011 03:32

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1292825)
I know, it's ridiculous, the only solution is a Swiss dictator, innit?

Top contender " Hoppy" ;):D

Jimmy Bee 09.08.2011 09:28

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by henrytkhau (Post 1293696)
Start by rigging the Foot Locker in Brixton with TNT and putting up a sign saying "Looters welcome"

"Looters welcome" wouldn't be looting would it :msnnerd:

CorsebouTheReturn 09.08.2011 11:06

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
So let's start again:
What to do so people stop hating the UK?

Seeing the recent events i'm quite sure it would impact "British's opinion" on their native country. (referring to Tottenham, etc... social abuses).

I'm not talking about the opinion of those rioters because this time it's far from being justified... If only it was riots following the "expenses scandal" then that would be much better than because a criminal has been shot: it would send a clear message to our politicians.

Now it's only showing: we're stupid animals, stay in your richer neighborhood and make additional repressive laws.
...idiots!

colinwheeler 09.08.2011 11:13

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1293861)
because this time it's far from being justified...

Unfortunatley the justification of a revolution is hardly a good indicator of its success, failure or way that it is going to go down. I doubt that good or bad mean very much in these situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1293861)
So let's start again:
What to do so people stop hating the UK?

Tollerance, intelligent thought, creative solutions and a commitment to making each and every persons life better through collaboration and hard work.

Guest 09.08.2011 11:15

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colinwheeler (Post 1293879)
Tollerance, intelligent thought, creative solutions and a commitment to making each and every persons life better through collaboration and hard work.

:rofl:

Have you seen the kind of people who populate the United Kingdom these days?

CorsebouTheReturn 09.08.2011 11:16

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colinwheeler (Post 1293879)
Tollerance, intelligent thought, creative solutions and a commitment to making each and every persons life better through collaboration and hard work.

Those are concepts. We're after how to make that happens.

What actuals changes can we bring to UK's law or rules or whatever-?

How about that "citizen levels" thing I mentionned, to create a feeling of worthiness, increasing commitment?

colinwheeler 09.08.2011 11:29

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1293884)
Those are concepts.

Point taken.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1293884)
What actuals changes can we bring to UK's law or rules or whatever-?

Education, not just academic but real social and cultural education. This will mean that people get those principles (concepts) in thier heads at a young age and see how they help make a great society. Principles adjust concious behaviour.

Get rid of the nany state. People that are catered for have no value for what they are spoon or forse fed!

Create equality through transparency. For example, publish everybody's salaries but also publish everybody's contribution and how those figures were arrived at....sounds crazy but might be a thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1293884)
How about that "citizen levels" thing I mentionned, to create a feeling of worthiness, increasing commitment?

I did not spot it specifically but in principle there has to be both carrot and stick motivation so if the system is fair, transparent and understandable to people and they agree with it, hey, all for the good.

It is vitally important to make sure that each and every person in the country understands that the health of the country is his/her responsibility and that they can make an impact, that thier contribution does count and that they are empowered.

CorsebouTheReturn 09.08.2011 11:48

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1292550)
That's great! Thanks for the suggestions.
They look very reasonable and adapted to social issues in the UK.
I'd also add about the "failures if they don't work in an office." something about the crappy reality shows: show the kids that being a "star" (or a crappy public person" is not proof of success. Well it seems to be because they are loaded and everything but I believe in more worthy values like being scientist, doctor, office worker, carpenter, etc... Those are more important than being a stupid prick behind a camera.


I was actually thinking of a "social experiment" based on your comment:
"Encourage.." How do you encourage someone on a society scale?
Punishment/repression?
Education? (but then it takes ages, and it's too late for generations)
Reward? (as you said our reward values are really limited to being in an office...or being loaded).
etc...

A possible "experiment" (probably looks "funny"): based on the video games:
a system of levels/ experience.

We have public money, we more or less agree it's often spend like stupid. In any case it's 1 way process: out of your pocket -> gone (spend like crappy).

That "system" could engage citizens to feel more responsible, engage, and feel reward to it:

Define a list of worthy social actions and create social activities. Provide a number of experience for each of them. Check completion by a special officer (or judge). Every lot of experience gain a "social level". Possible reward: Citizen level 5 for example would get a very little rebate on their tax. For example
You are +5 you pay 1% less on your tax as opposed to a level 0... Because in any case you've prove worthy to the society, they dont need to invest so much public money for than than for the ned who pollutes, etc...


Example of activities:
- teaching anything you know (carpenter, office, cooking, whatever) to migrants or anyone= integration, feeling of worthyness, etc...
- attending teachings (1 hour a week or something not heavy)
- Cleaning the trains sessions (easy way to get experience; showing cleaning is not reserved to lower class, etc...)
- Recycling collections (help cleaning, easy way, etc...).
-Working!! YES by default you work, you pay taxes. it's good enough for the society



So I don't think it would be too much "government regulation" (as saoudians countries) but more citizenship involvment and a real reward system to make citizen happy.

PS: it's just an IDEA and I don't think it has ever been applied in any countries. Maybe that's a possible "new society model"?

I would think it would help migrants, locals etc...

up...suggestions changes

CorsebouTheReturn 09.08.2011 11:55

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colinwheeler (Post 1293906)
Point taken.

Education, not just academic but real social and cultural education. This will mean that people get those principles (concepts) in thier heads at a young age and see how they help make a great society. Principles adjust concious behaviour.

Get rid of the nany state. People that are catered for have no value for what they are spoon or forse fed!

Create equality through transparency. For example, publish everybody's salaries but also publish everybody's contribution and how those figures were arrived at....sounds crazy but might be a thought.


I did not spot it specifically but in principle there has to be both carrot and stick motivation so if the system is fair, transparent and understandable to people and they agree with it, hey, all for the good.

It is vitally important to make sure that each and every person in the country understands that the health of the country is his/her responsibility and that they can make an impact, that thier contribution does count and that they are empowered.

Education...would take years! = a generation is ruined, along with other generations who have to cope with crappy actions.

Transparency? It would provide weapons to feed jealous people. Not good in my opinion.

Nany state: Agreed. So introducing a system of reward/less contribution because the nanny state is fed by you and feeding social parasites* (* not all but there's too much abusers)


I also think:
It is vitally important to make sure that each and every person in the country understands that the health of the country is his/her responsibility and that they can make an impact, that thier contribution does count and that they are empowered.

But right now it's "one way" system. Money out of you, used by... the government who screw it up and distribute it like stupid. Or pocket it for expenses. You have nothing to say in that system otherwise you are a fraudster, criminal. Oh yeah you can vote... ha.ha.


It's like you are the responsible citizen who is asked to contribute. But the contribution's going to their expenses, to abusers, and you have nothing in return but crappy behaviors.

I really think a new society model where people do get "experience" from their social actions. Such as working, yes, you work you collect "social experience".
Reward would be reduction of your tax.

colinwheeler 09.08.2011 12:04

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Look, honestly I left because those things that I mentioned are the only way to fix things and yes they will take a long time and be very hard, but ignoring because of that fact is not going to work.

I really believe in transparency. If a system is not transparent, it is not fair. Yes, I know it is difficult and takes a long time, just as education does. These things are very often multi-generational.

My issue is generally that everybody in today's world wants it now.....the world does not work like that.

Those that can't plan a social strategy 50 years into the future in today's world is just a social dinosaur and doomed for extinction.

CorsebouTheReturn 09.08.2011 12:19

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
I agree and disagree... I can't accept the idea that it will take decades. It's possible to make things changes quicker.

Also, it seems your vision is also based on "higher authority" spreading the "good" (ie the school, educating the masses). It's still very compliant with current system/vision of life: the leaders (the good politicians) educate the masses( the dumb citizens).

It all changed with Internet for example, now basic citizen have much more power because they can instantly communicate to millions; which was impossible before. It used to be the leaders had access to those communication, not it changes. Society can also change as with the internet.


My suggestion implies involving the citizen in many many ways- "natural "ones like going to work = no change in your daily life, but recognized as worthy and leading to real advantage: tax cut for you.

Or less natural way: like taking part in "education sessions" to others, very little contribution asked: 1h/month or something; voluntary, can lead to tax cut for you.
Same for "attending"= voluntarily people to attend education sessions...

Recycling session: solves the problem of "dirt", naturally educate people during years by showing that everyone can contribute, get rewards...

Those changes won't needs years of education. But Permanent, constant involvement. Possible now, changing the "bad education" into "more socially acceptable one" for years.

Effects visible immediately!

Could be "regrouping" the activities into "classes" like:

Ecology/environment; Education; Work; social; and whatever important social values.
Example activities:
-Ecology/environment: cleaning trains, collecting recycle, removing bags in forests, etc...
-Education: teaching sessions,
-Work: well working...
-Social: participating in charity or feeding the poors, or talking to the poors, etc...



Of course mistakes to avoid:
Giving more "experience" for x or y type of work: very bad! all work are socially worthy= same experience given. Anyway your salary is already giving you the "difference" no need to show it everywhere.

Also the "percentage incentive of tax reduction" would engage higher classes because 1% of 50 000gbp per annum is different than 1% of 15000gbp per annum.

colinwheeler 09.08.2011 13:07

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1294000)
Also, it seems your vision is also based on "higher authority" spreading the "good" (ie the school, educating the masses).

Alas, no, sorry but I believe that the community is responsible for education.
Schools for academic, run at a community level.
Local leaders for civic/social education, once again at a community level.
Cultural groups for culture, at whatever level they are able to support.

I hesitate to allow central government or any higher authority control over anything. The Rütlischwur (or at least one of the most popular versions, from a play) sums it up very nicely for me, especially the last line.
"We shall be a single People of brethren,
Never to part in danger nor distress.
We shall be free, just as our fathers were,
And rather die than live in slavery.
We shall trust in the one highest God
And never be afraid of human power."

I also cannot trust government and although I may disagree with the use of the word "God" here, I would rather use a more perviasive non-religeous view of "everything", I still agree with the principle.

People need to take personal accountability for all of these things.

CorsebouTheReturn 09.08.2011 13:44

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colinwheeler (Post 1294075)
Alas, no, sorry but I believe that the community is responsible for education.
Schools for academic, run at a community level.
Local leaders for civic/social education, once again at a community level.
Cultural groups for culture, at whatever level they are able to support.

I hesitate to allow central government or any higher authority control over anything. The Rütlischwur (or at least one of the most popular versions, from a play) sums it up very nicely for me, especially the last line.
"We shall be a single People of brethren,
Never to part in danger nor distress.
We shall be free, just as our fathers were,
And rather die than live in slavery.
We shall trust in the one highest God
And never be afraid of human power."

I also cannot trust government and although I may disagree with the use of the word "God" here, I would rather use a more perviasive non-religeous view of "everything", I still agree with the principle.

People need to take personal accountability for all of these things.

I would start by defining that:
Alas, no, sorry but I believe that the community is responsible for education
Because communities as it's currently applied it's a society divider, not anything for a...united kingdom!
Plus in current context it would means different educations... communities of Indians would have X education, communities of Easter Europe would have Y educations, etc... all conflicting more or less.

As one said we're talking about the United Kingdom, it's suppose to be fair, equal, etc... for every british citizen, no matter which "community" they come from.

In that respect I would ask you to clarify your comment on "community".

Plus those "divisions" are quite silly if you think of it.
It could be a "community of teachers" all over the UK, defining a program for the whole country, and applying it locally to every schools or education centers.


How to make that happen: "People need to take personal accountability for all of these things"?

I suggested random ideas such as the incentive reward program, which would lead to less expenses by the councils, and more visible effects + tax rebate.

Could that be a way to make people be more personal?

It would leave total freedom to any citizen: you don't want to do any of the suggested crap, it's ok. You just will stay with the normal tax rate, etc... You would still see the positive changes as other citizen would clean, etc...

You want to improve your environment? contribute little, get tax rebate, see the changes and have "better status" (because you'll be higher level citizens: your efforts won't be useless and you will feed less the passives because you would pay less taxes).

adrianlondon 09.08.2011 13:54

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
I think some of the run-down areas of the UK (such as Tottenham, Hackney, Croydon, Birmingham city centre etc.) should be burnt down and rebuilt.

As the UK is short of cash, they should offer surplus electrical goods to the unemployed to help.

colinwheeler 09.08.2011 15:04

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1294123)
In that respect I would ask you to clarify your comment on "community".

A community is:
  1. Group of people sharing a common understanding.
  2. The condition of having certain attitudes and interests in common.
I have chosen my view from the definitions and would like to make the following point based on that. A community is what that community decides it should be.

A study of anthropology and psychology will quickly reveal that mature and healthy communities are inclusive and not exclusive. So by being part of a mature community, that in no way stops me being part of another or, infact, as many communities as I wish. Each is simply a group with common understanding. Within communities we often see "enterprises" arrising, i.e. one or more individuals with a common set of goals. These enterprises within the community will generally support the common understanding, attitude and interest of that specific community, and in healthy communities, not confilict with adjacent or parallel communities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1294123)
Plus those "divisions" are quite silly if you think of it.

Yes, if they were divisions, yes, they would be silly but as pointed out above, mature and healthy communities create partnerships, collaboration and inclusivity. Immature and sick communities create segregations, divisions, have "black sheep" that always get the blame, use a lot of finger pointing and generally cannot integrate because they feel too insecure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1294123)
It could be a "community of teachers" all over the UK, defining a program for the whole country, and applying it locally to every schools or education centers.

Yes, it could just as easily be allowing the Hindus or Buhdists to have thier own education system as well to support thier culture and ways of life as long as those do not violate the common sense views of what people need to know to be good members of the larger community and/or violate anybody's human rights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1294123)
How to make that happen: "People need to take personal accountability for all of these things"?

I love where you are going with this whole thing and without re-inventing the wheel (as this and many ways to get people to take accountability have been very well written about before, take Skinner and Clease's "Life and How to survive it" as an example) I would suggest that getting rid of the nanny state, helping people stand on thier own two feet and making them feel as if they personally can make a difference, is the best way.

What are the steps..... Very hard but could be actioned quite quickly:
  1. Stop handouts. Completely, no exceptions.
  2. Fully support local business (all sectors) and community run business and possibly give them massive tax incentives.
  3. Provide people with resources to help establish self sufficient communities, local farming, local manufacutring, crafts, apprenticships.
  4. Help communities support thier own people that need help instead of fostering a wealfare state that has no understanding of local needs.
  5. Bring back some of the old skills. Stone masons, carpenters, etc. There is immense value, both in quality and in pride in artisanship.
  6. If you want to legislate about anything, outlaw planned and percieved obsolescence in manufacuting.

I like a lot of your ideas but I don't think they are drastic enough to drive the change that is nessessary.

Guest 09.08.2011 15:24

Re: What to do so people stop hating the UK?
 
Quote:

Have you seen the kind of people who populate the United Kingdom these days?
You just watch yer lip, mate.


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