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View Poll Results: Why are these riots happening (vote for the closest to your beliefs)
The Duggan shooting is the primary cause of the riots 4 4.12%
The riots are caused because of social injustice 9 9.28%
The riots are caused because of too much "justice"/benefits etc 5 5.15%
The riots are spontaneous/opportunistic, just criminals seeing an opportunity. 75 77.32%
The riots are caused by too much immigration 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #261  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:02
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Everyone is slamming the rioters and looters. Nobody slammed the peaceful protesters.

Fair comment
  #262  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:03
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Do you think that the western world is going to get a 'Western Spring'

Tie this in with the way the stock markets are going in the US and the way the Tea party must have disenfranchised a lot of the lower classes in the US with the debt ceiling debate
Sept-Nov is going to be very challenging for western governments. With all the debts crisis some austerity measures are unavoidable and that could be the last drop before the boiling resentment among the population starts really to erupt on a larger scale.
  #263  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:15
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Sept-Nov is going to be very challenging for western governments. With all the debts crisis some austerity measures are unavoidable and that could be the last drop before the boiling resentment among the population starts really to erupt on a larger scale.

I think there's something in that too, the whole question of disenfranchisement is important, we've seen how people felt ignored and powerless as governments acted blatantly against the sometimes vocal will of the masses - hiding behind the mantra of elected mandate to govern. Examples include the Iraq War and the stop the war protests, another would be the bail out of the banks and how the government has seemingly mishandled the whole affair - lending money to banks that had demonstrated an unbelievable inability to handle it properly and were still paying incredible bonuses or golden handshakes to turds like 'Sir' Fred Goodwin. What lesson does this pass on to other people? Certainly it doesn't seem to be 'work hard and you'll get your just rewards', more 'the more you f..k things up the better off you can come out of it'. Now I realise the government argue that legally there was nothing they could do about the Goodwin case, that may be true. What galls is that banks have received huge tax payer bailouts meaning in effect the country owns the banks yet they have zero say in how those same banks conduct their business and benefit not one jot from any profit the bank may generate. I would force the banks to repay everything they had to borrow plus interest before they could even consider paying anyone a bonus. I think part of the social problem in the UK (and very possibly other countries as well) is that there is a lack of accountability for such actions. The crux is that whilst there may be legal justice perhaps moral or natural justice is what's needed too, the feeling that wrong doing will be punishable, you can't "get away with it", screwing up will have consequences. A simple straw poll here, hands up if you think Fred Goodwin should have received a bonus/severance payout? (I know he was contractually entitled to it but the real question is should he have received it. My own opinion is that morally he would have a very hard time justifying it, then again, with the money he received he probably doesn't give a toss what people think of him)
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  #264  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:16
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

If I was a terrorist, I'd be really proud of what the natives have achieved in limited time and with limited preparation and resources.

Congratulations, people of the UK. You've achieved more than they could with a smeggy pair of undies
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  #265  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:16
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Other countries are having some fun.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14456635

Maybe we should listen to the protesters list of demands.....

iPads
watches
flat screen TVs
Blackberries
etc.
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  #266  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:18
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Maybe we should listen to the protesters list of demands.....

iPads
watches
flat screen TVs
Blackberries
etc.

good list, and as a sop to the Iranians who are clearly upset at the poor treatment of the peaceful protesters I would add "free nuclear power for all"
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  #267  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:20
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

The 2012 Olympic Games will happen 27 July - 12 August 2012 and this covers the same period as now when we saw the riots ad the people unable to protect the population or contain the riots. They will surely happen next year in London and if that is the case then I think it is not safe to hold the Olympic Games there.

And if they concentrate the police around the Olympic venues then the youths will be free to loot undisturbed.

Last edited by RolandRB; 09.08.2011 at 13:25.
  #268  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:24
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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... without going into too much boring details - George Osborne, the head of UK treasury, represents those upper-middle/upper class people in the UK who get into power due to family or other class related connections, without having the necessary education nor experience for the particular job.

This is very wide spread, not only in politics, but also in many other professional fields, where your social background, and with who you are related or friends with is very important.
And yes, the UK is quite unique in this case, compared to other European countries. I know it does exist too in CH, France etc. but definitely not in this extent
Really?

Simple examples:

France: The percentage of upper class background students at the most prestigious engineering schools? 90%. (Up from 70% in the 60s!)

Germany: Chance of an inner city immigrant child ending up in college vs. a middle class non-immigrant from the suburb with at least one academic parent? 1:14.

But I know it's culturally that you need to feel this way: Yes, the Yoo-Kay is very special. The cars burning there burn much worse than the ones French or German teenagers set on fire in similar riots...

We are all doomed. Only good news is that the US is even more doomed than us, so let's watch them going down first and then die.
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  #269  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:24
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Thieving and looting across the country: London calls it "an abomination", Birmingham calls it "a disgrace", and Liverpool call it "a Monday"
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  #270  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:39
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

For those interested, a community effort to start clean-up.
http://wiki.crisiscommons.org/wiki/L..._Riots_Cleanup
  #271  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:41
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

You could also have a potential new employer as well. To serve as diversion if nothing else...

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If I was a terrorist, I'd be really proud of what the natives have achieved in limited time and with limited preparation and resources.
  #272  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:47
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Dump the rioters in the dungeons until they get their heads straight.
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  #273  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:52
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Dump the rioters in the dungeons until they get their heads straight.
Just seen on the news that London's cells are all full already shipping them out to other areas now.

To top it all they have cancelled the England footie game as well. Best to not give any more excuse to fight.
  #274  
Old 09.08.2011, 12:56
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The Youth of the Middle East rise up for basic freedoms. The Youth of London rise up for a HD ready 42" Plasma TV
Arab Spring vs ASBO Summer
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  #275  
Old 09.08.2011, 13:09
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Eisenhower got it right, when he said that a society which values it privileges above its principles soon loses both.

When did being able to nick a toaster suddenly become more important than not being an ar$ehole?
  #276  
Old 09.08.2011, 13:11
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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You really are your name. Perhaps you can go back and read over my point which was not that there is or is not a GLC or what it is but rather the period of time that is has existed and the specific point that during the timeline of living people right now, there has been no single Greater London authority or council or single defintion of the area that has seen the doubling of a population.
What doesn't figure in the statistics is the vast number of illegal immigrants who flood into London. There are many thousands working illegally who obviously don't appear on Wikipedia.
When the Sangatte refugee camp existed in France, almost all of the occupants were trying to get into the UK by fair means or foul - usually foul, in the backs of lorries etc. They still manage it even without Sangatte.
Fake passports are all too easily obtained. Each time a security device is encrypted into the system, forgers find a way round it, be it passports, National Insurance certificates, driving licences, credit cards, or money.
Security at airports is said to be tight and, certainly, if you are given the third degree by an immigration officer, it can appear to be but, at other times whole queues of arrivals get through without more than a cursory glance at the passport or ID card.
I travel back and forth between Switzerland and the Uk all the time, and I've been subject to both scenarios.
  #277  
Old 09.08.2011, 13:25
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The 2012 Olympic Games will happen 27 July - 12 August 2012 and this covers the same period as now when we saw the riots ad the people unable to protect the population or contain the riots. They will surely happen next year in London and if that is the case then I think it is not safe to hold the Olympic Games there.
They'd better aim the starting pistol in the 100 metres very carefully.

I saw some kid who was injured in the rioting was helped by rioters last night making sure he was okay while someone behind the kid dipped into his backpack and stole whatever was in it!

I was in Manchester the weekend before last. It seemed to have a refreshingly relaxed city centre.
Some incident happend on the Curry Mile in Rusholme (I think a pedestrian was knocked down) while we were dining there and within a few minutes a hundred or more local Asians had congregated down the street to 'help out'.
I'll be interested if anything kicks off in Manchester tonight (outside the centre). I hope not.
Any news down your way yet EvilShell?

Minor update. Cameron says there'll be 16,000 police in London tonight compared to 6,000 last night. All police leave is cancelled.
Ironic, Cameron has had brushes with the law in his yoof because of drugs and he was a member of The Bullingdon Club (infamous for smashing places up).
I guess he was just born on the right side of the tracks.

There have been community clean ups organised using Twitter which is reassuring.

Last edited by higgybaby; 09.08.2011 at 13:43. Reason: police numbers and tidy up
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  #278  
Old 09.08.2011, 13:31
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

With Twitter, FB , etc- I do believe the potential for this to spread beyond the UK is there. And as Treverus said, the disaffection of the French North Africans, and working class, is actually much much worse than in the UK.

If you look at the videos, a huge majority of the looters are NOT from Afro-Carribean background at all, but disaffected UK youth.
  #279  
Old 09.08.2011, 13:36
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I do believe the potential for this to spread beyond the UK is there.
If this happened outside the UK perhaps the police would be allowed to do something more effective.
  #280  
Old 09.08.2011, 13:38
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Really?

Simple examples:

France: The percentage of upper class background students at the most prestigious engineering schools? 90%. (Up from 70% in the 60s!)

Germany: Chance of an inner city immigrant child ending up in college vs. a middle class non-immigrant from the suburb with at least one academic parent? 1:14.

But I know it's culturally that you need to feel this way: Yes, the Yoo-Kay is very special. The cars burning there burn much worse than the ones French or German teenagers set on fire in similar riots...

We are all doomed. Only good news is that the US is even more doomed than us, so let's watch them going down first and then die.
Unfortunately: OECD: UK has worse social mobility

If we keep ignoring/denying these facts, the situation won't improve by itself.
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