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View Poll Results: Why are these riots happening (vote for the closest to your beliefs)
The Duggan shooting is the primary cause of the riots 4 4.12%
The riots are caused because of social injustice 9 9.28%
The riots are caused because of too much "justice"/benefits etc 5 5.15%
The riots are spontaneous/opportunistic, just criminals seeing an opportunity. 75 77.32%
The riots are caused by too much immigration 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:31
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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One other point is that for every 1 high paid banker or rich industrialist or whatever, there are 00,000s of ordinary people struggling to get by, who live by the law, pay their taxes, educate their kids and look to society to protect them.
There is no place for the likes of these scum, who steal from us, burn down our houses and flaunt the rules that collective society imposes on them. Punishment will take hours of police time and waste what meagre resources are available, and for what, to have social workers saying its not their fault because they have been brought up on Broadwater or whatever?
They burn building s and cars, they steal openly and they turn local centres into ghettos, and we are going to show the other cheek?
I don`t think so.
I don`t have all the answers but we cannot EVER afford to allow this thing to continue. Otherwise in a few years you will be reading about townships in London.
Incidentally, on my tv screen were both black and white looters and rioters, there is nothing racist about this.
I agree not all those in poverty turn into rioters some are trying to fight an already very difficult system to get out of the shit holes they live in. Have you tried living on benefits?

Only education and opportunities for real jobs can sort these places out.

I bet if you asked any person on those estates if they wanted a high profile job and were they willing to work for it they'd bite your hand off. You'd be pretty pissed off if you saw no way out and you were in a nasty cycle of poverty.

Poverty breeds poverty and I can only expect more rioting as the Tories and their banker mates refresh their bank accounts over the next few years.

What they did to the education system recently was disgusting. I would have loved to see Tory HQ burn to the ground. It would have sent a clear signal that the masses would not stand for these people preserving their own interests.

Problem is all parties are of the same cut these days in the UK. We're becoming the US rapidly with no political choices effectively run by corporations and banks.

A few shops being looted is nothing in comparison to the plague the tories have introduced into the education system.

A couple of weeks to sort the mess out in London is not comparable to the 50 years worth of damage the government has just created.

I'm glad people riot for these causes and the more it happens the better, politicans are so detatched from real people they need a reminder now and again.

A policeman holds an oath to uphold the peace they are not free to shoot individuals at will or carry out dubious checks at will etc.
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  #22  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:36
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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...These Riots have nothing to do with some black guy in the community being shot by the police....It appears to be mainly black Africans and young white lazy thugs that basically have never worked or done anything except scrounge benefits off the state....
Wow that sounds bad. A nightmare for Outraged of Milton Keynes and fans of Apartheid South Africa.
  #23  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:37
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The state owes them a job and benefits
The state owes them NOTHING, because the state HAS NOTHING. The state only has what it takes from people who work, and when not even thats enough, it borrows and then bills it to the future generation.

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its what we all pay tax for,
I pay taxes because i have to, not because i think its well spent. But since i do pay it, i do also expect it to go to those who will do something for it. Not the current western system of money for nothing. Living on benefits aint a paradise yet its still incredible some people prefer it than to go out and do something productive, so cant be that bad either i guess .
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  #24  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:38
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

As a consequence of these riots, the International Olympic Committee should withdraw permission to host the Olympics until the people of London have demonstrated that they can conduct themselves like civilised human beings.

Since this is unlikely to happen any time before Hell freezes over, they should give the Olympics to a safer, less tumultuous city, such as Baghdad or Mogadishu.

That'll show 'em.
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Old 08.08.2011, 11:39
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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As a consequence of these riots, the International Olympic Committee should withdraw permission to host the Olympics until the people of London have demonstrated that they can conduct themselves like civilised human beings.

Since this is unlikely to happen any time before Hell freezes over, they should give the Olympics to a safer, less tumultuous city, such as Baghdad or Mogadishu.

That'll show 'em.
Whoah... this is big news. Do you have a source for that?
  #26  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:46
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The state owes them NOTHING, because the state HAS NOTHING. The state only has what it takes from people who work, and when not even thats enough, it borrows and then bills it to the future generation.

I pay taxes because i have to, not because i think its well spent. But since i do pay it, i do also expect it to go to those who will do something for it. Not the current western system of money for nothing. Living on benefits aint a paradise yet its still incredible some people prefer it than to go out and do something productive, so cant be that bad either i guess .
Some people should get their heads out of the daily mail. Do you think the majority of people WANT to be on benefits? There's a very small percentage that hit the headlines for the wrong reason. Most of them are struggling to pay their bills and eat twice a day.

Similar to the payout for the banks eh? Makes the social welfare bill look like pocket change...

These benefits are generally there to protect the most vunerable in society at their greatest need.

Ask someone in South Wales how many jobs they've applied for in the last year. There is sod all available, I should know I tried it last year with zero success. I averaged x2 applications a day for 6 months. Then I gave up and moved to CH.

It's only going to get better as the Tories clamp down on the public sector, leaving even more people to fight for the jobs in the private sector that just aren't there.

Effectively what's happening in the UK is people's tax is propping up the banking system at the expense of council services and jobs. Most people buy the daily mail version of this but are too stupid to actually see what is happening.

Hey ho more riots to come hopefully.
  #27  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:54
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Ask someone in South Wales how many jobs they've applied for in the last year. There is sod all available
Sorry, Cata1yst, but you're making the typical provincial mistake of presuming that the honest working folk of South Wales are the same species of creature as the feral inhabitants of England's great metropolis.

Of course Welsh people want to work: they are decent, industrious methodists who wouldn't dream of accepting charity from the English tax payer unless they were genuinely in need.

Londoners, on the other hand, are feckless, workshy and socially deviant in nature, living off drug dealing, theft, robbery and the handling of stolen goods.

Can you imagine a riot such as the one in Tottenham kicking off in Merthyr, Swansea or Cardiff? Of course not! The good people of Wales wouldn't dream of fouling their own nests for the sake of a new pair of trainers, a television or a mobile phone.

Londoners, on the other hand, are so detached from common decency and humanity that they think nothing of destroying the livelihoods of their neighbours in order to get something for nothing and their faces on the telly.

Anthrax is too good for them, I tell you.
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  #28  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:57
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Some people should get their heads out of the daily mail. Do you think the majority of people WANT to be on benefits? There's a very small percentage that hit the headlines for the wrong reason. Most of them are struggling to pay their bills and eat twice a day.

Similar to the payout for the banks eh? Makes the social welfare bill look like pocket change...

These benefits are generally there to protect the most vunerable in society at their greatest need.

Ask someone in South Wales how many jobs they've applied for in the last year. There is sod all available, I should know I tried it last year with zero success. I averaged x2 applications a day for 6 months. Then I gave up and moved to CH.

It's only going to get better as the Tories clamp down on the public sector, leaving even more people to fight for the jobs in the private sector that just aren't there.

Effectively what's happening in the UK is people's tax is propping up the banking system at the expense of council services and jobs. Most people buy the daily mail version of this but are too stupid to actually see what is happening.

Hey ho more riots to come hopefully.
Well said Catalyst. Same goes for most parts of the U/K exept the South East.
  #29  
Old 08.08.2011, 11:59
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Can you imagine a riot such as the one in Tottenham kicking off in Merthyr, Swansea or Cardiff? Of course not! The good people of Wales wouldn't dream of fouling their own nests for the sake of a new pair of trainers, a television or a mobile phone.
That is probably because they don't have any shops that sell TVs or Mobiles Phones in Wales.
Training Shoes; don't they only wear Wellington boots in Wales?
  #30  
Old 08.08.2011, 12:00
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That is probably because they don't have any shops that sell TVs or Mobiles Phones in Wales.
Training Shoes; don't they only wear Wellington boots in Wales?
Wales Ticino.

HTH
  #31  
Old 08.08.2011, 12:02
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Some people should get their heads out of the daily mail. Do you think the majority of people WANT to be on benefits? There's a very small percentage that hit the headlines for the wrong reason. Most of them are struggling to pay their bills and eat twice a day.

Similar to the payout for the banks eh? Makes the social welfare bill look like pocket change...

These benefits are generally there to protect the most vunerable in society at their greatest need.

Ask someone in South Wales how many jobs they've applied for in the last year. There is sod all available, I should know I tried it last year with zero success. I averaged x2 applications a day for 6 months. Then I gave up and moved to CH.

It's only going to get better as the Tories clamp down on the public sector, leaving even more people to fight for the jobs in the private sector that just aren't there.

Effectively what's happening in the UK is people's tax is propping up the banking system at the expense of council services and jobs. Most people buy the daily mail version of this but are too stupid to actually see what is happening.

Hey ho more riots to come hopefully.

the real facts and figures regarding the banking bail out are well documented, and have nothing to do with what happened in tottenham, I'm sure you know (but it doesn't make for a good argument) that the government didn't actually give any bank any money, they lent them money at very high rates and with lots of strings attached (which quite of the few banks wouldn't accept and told them where to go) or they bought the banks shares at very very low prices, and have been doing very nicely thank you out of the deal. They also guaranteed banks debts, again, at a price, and last time I checked had made over 1 billion from it, again, thats not a headline the BBC et al like to broadcast.

local government jobs went mental under labour, jobs for everyone in the public service, final salary pension for you, salaries higher then the private sector etc guess what? the uk couldn't afford it, no country can, when you have nearly half the uk employed working directly or indirectly for the public service something eventually has to give, and now it has.

the banking industry has been propping up the uk for decades, to think otherwise is naive.

but again, this has nothing to do with the riots, no matter how much money or opportunity you waste on these people it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, getting up at 12, drinking, smoking, dealing, robbing etc is a much easier life then getting up at 7 and doing an honest days work
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  #32  
Old 08.08.2011, 12:07
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Has anyone noticed the seasonal angle that both British and French riots seem to repeat? Having been caught up as an innocent bystander in the Poll Tax riots back in the 1990s and with knowledge of the Southall fall out, it always struck me that you always seem to find mobs willing to confront the authorities during the summer months, but add a bit of cold weather and those with "hardened demeanors"prefer to stay at home or maybe just use the cover of soccer games as their violent outlets.
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  #33  
Old 08.08.2011, 12:16
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Has anyone noticed the seasonal angle that both British and French riots seem to repeat? Having been caught up as an innocent bystander in the Poll Tax riots back in the 1990s and with knowledge of the Southall fall out, it always struck me that you always seem to find mobs willing to confront the authorities during the summer months, but add a bit of cold weather and those with "hardened demeanors"prefer to stay at home or maybe just use the cover of soccer games as their violent outlets.
You will also find that the riots by this scum take place when the Conservatives are in power. This is because the Conservative usually try to address the deficit and cut the benefits paid to these non deserving scum that have no intention of working but scrounging off the tax payer and robbing.

For those UK citizens under 50 in Switzerland planning to come back to the UK (you would be mad); I warn you now that there will be no state pension as there will be no monies left in the government coffers when you reach retirement age.
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  #34  
Old 08.08.2011, 12:30
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... non deserving scum that have no intention of working but scrounging off the tax payer and robbing....I warn you now that there will be no state pension as there will be no monies left in the government coffers when you reach retirement age.
Then there's the kind that scrounge off others by flogging them dodgy commission-heavy investments and leaving them with no monies in their coffers for retirement.
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  #35  
Old 08.08.2011, 12:41
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Some people should get their heads out of the daily mail. Do you think the majority of people WANT to be on benefits?
And you should get yours out of the sand and actually talk to some people on benefits.

In australia, my partner and I certainly did know many african and SE asian migrants who were on benefits. My colleagues at work were shocked when i told them how much they received when you calculated all the benefits, both cash and non cash. See most people like yourself, just look at the cash component - which is also how the government wants you to see it. But the people we knew, also had white goods packages, they had rent assistance (lived in a HOUSE NOT FLAT), the majority of utility bills were reduced (I cant verify in what way), free access to doctors for the whole family (a substantial cost in many countries), benefits for each child - and they were very big because most people had minimum 4-6kids, also they received government surveys on how happy they were (The government has never asked me if im happy ) and subsidised transportation --- (there was more but cant remember right now). They even said 'the government is very generous here'. And they were right. It was completely enough for a satisfactory life considering they did NOTHING. By the way, they all had cable TV and were all MASSIVE targets of scammers, salesmen and banks dishing out loans. And how did we know this? because these people happily/sadly told us. One burmese lady even told us how unfair it was, that if she took a low paying job that she was offered, her family would lose all the benefits they received which were SUBSTANTIALLY greater than what she would get paid. She was asking for advice on how such a system could function, where staying on benefits was more beneficial to her family than for her to go to work (a tough decision, aint it? no right answer). And these by the way, were all VERY honest people who did not abuse the system. So you can imagine the money you can receive when you intentionally abuse the system. They were completely nice people who unfortunately were victims of a terrible disincentive to work. I admit that that was australia, however i seriously doubt the UK is very much less generous from what i hear.

Now, I also dont think that many people want to live like this. But i will say, you are clueless if you think there are many that dont. There are many people who stay on benefits just because it pays more than a cleaning job would, which would then in turn trigger an automatic loss in benefits - whos to blame for that? Clue: the government and its champagne- sipping- pro- welfare- never seen a poor- person - cheering- squad.

Im totally against the bailouts by the way, but i guess in your world i must be a banker if i dare to speak out against welfare (or vote buying which is what it resembles today).

p.s i dont read the daily mail, I instead got my facts from people on the receiving end of benefits.
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  #36  
Old 08.08.2011, 13:04
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And you should get yours out of the sand and actually talk to some people on benefits.

In australia, my partner and I certainly did know many african and SE asian migrants who were on benefits. My colleagues at work were shocked when i told them how much they received when you calculated all the benefits, both cash and non cash. See most people like yourself, just look at the cash component - which is also how the government wants you to see it. But the people we knew, also had white goods packages, they had rent assistance (lived in a HOUSE NOT FLAT), the majority of utility bills were reduced (I cant verify in what way), free access to doctors for the whole family (a substantial cost in many countries), benefits for each child - and they were very big because most people had minimum 4-6kids, also they received government surveys on how happy they were (The government has never asked me if im happy ) and subsidised transportation --- (there was more but cant remember right now). They even said 'the government is very generous here'. And they were right. It was completely enough for a satisfactory life considering they did NOTHING. By the way, they all had cable TV and were all MASSIVE targets of scammers, salesmen and banks dishing out loans. And how did we know this? because these people happily/sadly told us. One burmese lady even told us how unfair it was, that if she took a low paying job that she was offered, her family would lose all the benefits they received which were SUBSTANTIALLY greater than what she would get paid. She was asking for advice on how such a system could function, where staying on benefits was more beneficial to her family than for her to go to work (a tough decision, aint it? no right answer). And these by the way, were all VERY honest people who did not abuse the system. So you can imagine the money you can receive when you intentionally abuse the system. They were completely nice people who unfortunately were victims of a terrible disincentive to work. I admit that that was australia, however i seriously doubt the UK is very much less generous from what i hear.

Now, I also dont think that many people want to live like this. But i will say, you are clueless if you think there are many that dont. There are many people who stay on benefits just because it pays more than a cleaning job would, which would then in turn trigger an automatic loss in benefits - whos to blame for that? Clue: the government and its champagne- sipping- pro- welfare- never seen a poor- person - cheering- squad.

Im totally against the bailouts by the way, but i guess in your world i must be a banker if i dare to speak out against welfare (or vote buying which is what it resembles today).

p.s i dont read the daily mail, I instead got my facts from people on the receiving end of benefits.
Australia is not the UK and your argument falls down there.

Where should these people live in a tent? What are you suggesting? NHS is free in the UK and long may it remain so.

Yes I had the lucky experience of being in a job centre in South Wales there are those that take the pee, but I'd guess from the conversations I overheard 95% of the people in that place wanted to work. The work is just not available.

Over the last 20 years there's been a complete destruction of industry in the UK that offered well paying skilled jobs. These people are not idiots but you can't keep a family of four with x2 adults working in maccy d's. They have replaced well paying skilled jobs with low end short term positions, which will happen again under the Tory plunder currently going on. That's great to address the countries financial position too, or maybe not.

Labour's public sector "boom" as people keep saying was money thrown on the back of a lot of failed projects with companies who raped the government for every penny they had.

If you look into the IT costs around that period you'll understand where a large chunk of money has gone. This has nothing to do with front line council services which have remained in my humble opinion pretty good value for money.

The banking system hasn't kept the UK alive, it's built a house of cards that were bound to hit the floor eventually, then they charge us for the priviledge of screwing it up.

NO private company should ever receive government handouts regardless of the payback terms. BoS seems to be doing swimmingly at the moment, what a great taxpayer investment!
  #37  
Old 08.08.2011, 13:12
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And you should get yours out of the sand and actually talk to some people on benefits.

In australia, my partner and I certainly did know many african and SE asian migrants who were on benefits. My colleagues at work were shocked when i told them how much they received when you calculated all the benefits, both cash and non cash. See most people like yourself, just look at the cash component - which is also how the government wants you to see it. But the people we knew, also had white goods packages, they had rent assistance (lived in a HOUSE NOT FLAT), the majority of utility bills were reduced (I cant verify in what way), free access to doctors for the whole family (a substantial cost in many countries), benefits for each child - and they were very big because most people had minimum 4-6kids, also they received government surveys on how happy they were (The government has never asked me if im happy ) and subsidised transportation --- (there was more but cant remember right now). They even said 'the government is very generous here'. And they were right. It was completely enough for a satisfactory life considering they did NOTHING. By the way, they all had cable TV and were all MASSIVE targets of scammers, salesmen and banks dishing out loans. And how did we know this? because these people happily/sadly told us. One burmese lady even told us how unfair it was, that if she took a low paying job that she was offered, her family would lose all the benefits they received which were SUBSTANTIALLY greater than what she would get paid. She was asking for advice on how such a system could function, where staying on benefits was more beneficial to her family than for her to go to work (a tough decision, aint it? no right answer). And these by the way, were all VERY honest people who did not abuse the system. So you can imagine the money you can receive when you intentionally abuse the system. They were completely nice people who unfortunately were victims of a terrible disincentive to work. I admit that that was australia, however i seriously doubt the UK is very much less generous from what i hear.

Now, I also dont think that many people want to live like this. But i will say, you are clueless if you think there are many that dont. There are many people who stay on benefits just because it pays more than a cleaning job would, which would then in turn trigger an automatic loss in benefits - whos to blame for that? Clue: the government and its champagne- sipping- pro- welfare- never seen a poor- person - cheering- squad.

Im totally against the bailouts by the way, but i guess in your world i must be a banker if i dare to speak out against welfare (or vote buying which is what it resembles today).

p.s i dont read the daily mail, I instead got my facts from people on the receiving end of benefits.
Populist un-founded rubbish, if these 'immigrants' are doing so well from the benefits why on earth do they need to borrow crippling levels of debt? Plus they do get deported after a while if they are not passport holders and are not looking for work.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if living on benefits is more lucrative than getting a full-time job, then it is the job and working environment that is at fault, NOT the welfare state!
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  #38  
Old 08.08.2011, 13:51
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Sorry, Cata1yst, but you're making the typical provincial mistake of presuming that the honest working folk of South Wales are the same species of creature as the feral inhabitants of England's great metropolis.

Of course Welsh people want to work: they are decent, industrious methodists who wouldn't dream of accepting charity from the English tax payer unless they were genuinely in need.

Londoners, on the other hand, are feckless, workshy and socially deviant in nature, living off drug dealing, theft, robbery and the handling of stolen goods.

Can you imagine a riot such as the one in Tottenham kicking off in Merthyr, Swansea or Cardiff? Of course not! The good people of Wales wouldn't dream of fouling their own nests for the sake of a new pair of trainers, a television or a mobile phone.

Londoners, on the other hand, are so detached from common decency and humanity that they think nothing of destroying the livelihoods of their neighbours in order to get something for nothing and their faces on the telly.

Anthrax is too good for them, I tell you.
I find your sweeping generalizations pretty offensive, DB.
I'm a Londoner and am not 'feckless, workshy or socially deviant'.
Yes, I detest what has happened in Tottenham, but to say 'Londoners are detached from common decency' is untrue and unfair. Most of the people in my part of London are hardworking and as decent as anyone you would find in any part of Switzerland. I agree we're a dying breed, but we still very much exist and, for the most part, are proud of being English, and horrified by what is now all too frequently happening in SOME parts of London.
If I made a statement that everyone from Zurich was a money-grabbing, humourless, inbred, self-centred, drug-taking robot, that might well be true in some cases, but certainly doesn't apply to everyone from Zurich.
I still have a flat in London which has never been burgled or vandalized. I'm hardly ever there, but the pots outside my door remain undisturbed, and have done for years, unlike here in the centre of Lausanne where, frequently at weekends, thugs destroy the flower-pots outside my neighbour's gates, and where my daughter, visiting with small children, was recently attacked by drug-addicts.
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Old 08.08.2011, 13:52
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If I made a statement that everyone from Zurich was a money-grabbing, humourless, inbred, self-centred, drug-taking robot, that might well be true in some cases, but certainly doesn't apply to everyone from Zurich.
It sounds pretty accurate to me.
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Old 08.08.2011, 13:54
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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A- The subsequent Scarman Report (although primarily directed at the Brixton Riot of 1981) recognised that the riots did represent the result of social problems, such as poverty and deprivation.
Did anybody pay for that report? And if so, did they get their money back?
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