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View Poll Results: Why are these riots happening (vote for the closest to your beliefs)
The Duggan shooting is the primary cause of the riots 4 4.12%
The riots are caused because of social injustice 9 9.28%
The riots are caused because of too much "justice"/benefits etc 5 5.15%
The riots are spontaneous/opportunistic, just criminals seeing an opportunity. 75 77.32%
The riots are caused by too much immigration 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #421  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:12
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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if your unemployed in the uk then you qualify for free
Yes, and we all know the quality of stuff you get for free and we all know how much people appreciate the stuff that they get for free.

Maybe time to change that mentality.
  #422  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:14
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Yes, and we all know the quality of stuff you get for free and we all know how much people appreciate the stuff that they get for free.

Maybe time to change that mentality.
the evening courses etc would be the same city and guilds qualifications that others have had to pay for, but I see what your getting at
  #423  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:15
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I watched BBC last night, I thought they did a superb job covering, especially inviting young people, smart students, rappers, old cops..It was obvious that some speakers don't get the nature of these protests, or just populistically market themselves. I thought it is not just simpleton criminals who would do this anytime they'd have chance since they do not respect police. Things seem a lot more complicated, and it is not only in the UK. It won't get better if kids don't get a space to talk about this. The saddest thing about the whole thing is, they really are teens, mostly, aren't they. Desperation, cry for structure that would give them a chance to succeed, seems like an attempt to find boundaries that no longer exist..
here we go again, poor victims, blablabla-

I was a kid, poor. I haven't mugged anyone or went to express my anger in the streets. I haven't bought a weapon to play the "gansta". I went to the library (free activity), doing free stuffs, etc...

But yeah they're victim, I almost forget.
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  #424  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:17
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Bring back compulsory national service in the UK, the kids need respect and discipline.
This would also be a huge immigration coo, imagine if you had to fight in Afghanistan..

Might make a few people think before crossing over from Calais. Should be compulsory for all similar to the Swiss system. It also teaches discipline.
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  #425  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:21
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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This would also be a huge immigration coo, imagine if you had to fight in Afghanistan..

Might make a few people think before crossing over from Calais. Should be compulsory for all similar to the Swiss system. It also teaches discipline.
the army have already said they wouldn't want them, the army nowadays is nothing like it was when the uk last had national service, sure they need some cannon fodder but they mainly need intelligent skilled people, not mindless thugs.

the last thing the uk needs is these idiots trained up how to really use guns and knives.
  #426  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:24
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I would have to respectfully disagree, to me that whole thinking is why this has happened, it not there fault, talk to them, mother them, spend etc etc, these people don't want to change, as I said earlier on this thread if your unemployed in the uk then you qualify for free education, free evening classes, re-training etc etc a good mechanic will never be unemployed, an good plumber, electrician, plasterer, painter etc etc will never be unemployed so there is no reason at all someone from one of these areas cannot get off there arses and make something of themselves, but sitting around watching tv, smoking, drinking, reproducing and bitching about bankers is much easier.
Well, I agree with you. There is no point, though, trying to point finger and look for a person to blame. I would of course expect those looters to face criminal charges, they should. But saying there is all this for them and they still do not want it, says something about this generation. If you only say, yes, it is a bad generation, or a specific bit of population, it won't work. First, I think giving people chances for free, over and over, and make other, good kids work hard for their success is a joke and makes these hooligns feel like what they are offered for free, ain't worth nutin.

I think boundaries and structure, interest, giving platform, parents being involved, etc etc. It's a whole really complex thingm schooling, parenting, general culture priorities that get shoved into folks, pseudo royalism, all this stuff, that also exists elswhere...But, elsewhere, it makes me feel, or at least where I have lived, kids were rewarded with chances. Maybe these kids are just given stuff and chances for free, so society/family does not have to look too much into consequences of how we all live, and what role models we are giving.

This is not an excuse, though, but unless we understand, we won't tackle it. It's not only in the UK, again. Alternative countercultures existed all the time, but there was a lot of honor in it, self imposed boundaries and feeling of belonging, strict rules. I think hooligans are going after pseudo heroism and feeling of belonging. Daring. With too much FB time, not a real life and work time, too much PC war games, without anybody providing any healthy commentaries, too much fake pc interaction that make kids numb to real hurting and real people. You can't hurt your dad so easily when you spit in his face, but constant online killing and war games might make you set a local church on fire just fine, since you don't face a real, human hurt, in real life. You don't look into those shop owners faces.

It's tragic really. But it's been in the making for decades.

By the way, horses? Cops on horses? Why hasn't the country equipped their cops better, all these restrictions, it's a joke. If a teen hooligan does not fear a cop, than we are obviously in a trouble.
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  #427  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:28
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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here we go again, poor victims, blablabla-

I was a kid, poor. I haven't mugged anyone or went to express my anger in the streets. I haven't bought a weapon to play the "gansta". I went to the library (free activity), doing free stuffs, etc...

But yeah they're victim, I almost forget.
I was a poor kid, too. They are everywhere. Good ones.

This is not a victim game. They are not poor victims. Those shop owners are. But aside of immediate responsibility and criminal charges pressed, if we do not think about what made them do this, we won't change it. You can't squash all of them, oppressively and scare them into passivity. It would backfire. You need to pull tight while you work with it. Offer chance to earn rewards. Not give it free, while you mock them and say they are the worst of worst of generations.
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  #428  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:30
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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the last thing the uk needs is these idiots trained up how to really use guns and knives.
actually, in the absence of a decent war requiring all of these testosterone-fuelled morons to run amok "defending" something, civil disobedience typically increases.

In being trained by the army and other forces, almost all of them will learn something (probably that the parents could not be bothered with) and behave differently (in a socially-acceptable manner).

Worst case is a bunch of them who get killed and thus you've fewer people to loot Carphone Warehouse and other stores (I have local reports from friends that bookstores and coffeeshops have not been touched but phone and video game stores have been looted).
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  #429  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:34
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I was a poor kid, too. They are everywhere. Good ones.

This is not a victim game. They are not poor victims. Those shop owners are. But aside of immediate responsibility and criminal charges pressed, if we do not think about what made them do this, we won't change it. You can't squash all of them, oppressively and scare them into passivity. It would backfire. You need to pull tight while you work with it. Offer chance to earn rewards. Not give it free, while you mock them and say they are the worst of worst of generations.
Their attitude to life starts when they are young at school. Is it the teachers fault therefore and is the education system failing them? I prefer to think its their lazy good for nothing parents that don`t give a flying number 2 where they are or what they are doing.
My sister teaches in a deprived area and what she tells me about how the kids are treated at home is shocking. Dont just fine the kids, fine the parents, after all if a dog bites someone ,its the owner that is punished.
  #430  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:34
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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It looks like some of the rioters bit off a bit more than they could chew when they rolled into Whitechapel just as the local lads were breaking their fasts...
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  #431  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:41
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I was a poor kid, too. They are everywhere. Good ones.

This is not a victim game. They are not poor victims. Those shop owners are. But aside of immediate responsibility and criminal charges pressed, if we do not think about what made them do this, we won't change it. You can't squash all of them, oppressively and scare them into passivity. It would backfire. You need to pull tight while you work with it. Offer chance to earn rewards. Not give it free, while you mock them and say they are the worst of worst of generations.

how to fix it? well get rid of school and police league tables for a start, a school doesn't want a trouble maker, they drag down there stats, so they are more then happy if they don't turn up

allow the police to stop whoever they want, when they want

make the kids stay at school, they don't turn up then actually enforce the current laws (parents can goto prison etc)

at 16 (school leaving age) you have 4 choices, and only these choices, and until you are 18 you have to stay in these choices, so lose your job and you have to goto college for example.

1. Job
2. higher education
3. apprentice
4. armed forces

at 18 you have the same choices again, unless you complete these choices (or are in one of them) you get no benefits at all.

if you have never contributed to the 'system' (and the 4 choices count as contribution) then you are entitled to nothing, simple.

yes it will cost, and take some political will, but what other choices are there

(apart from taking off and nuking from orbit)
  #432  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:42
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

The lady who spoke for police on BBC last night that blaming police is wrong, they are not supposed to be intimidating and causing UK to become a police state...But there were so many cops hurt in this, looks like society just used them as buffer. Does not every country have a special armed forces for situ like these? Special units that get called if some IMF folks decide to blow up a building, etc? It took 4 days to mobilize cops? 4 days of regular folks of losing their businesses. Hm. It looks easy elsewhere, one phone call and you have these special units purposely mishandling a bit, no real violence but an educational portion of it, and it all calms down..And then you can start looking into motives and actually work with the what made people do what they did, make improvements, restructure, offer alternatives.
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  #433  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:42
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

One thing has struck me, reading all the reports and watching the footage: the participants in the looting all seem to be native-born British; the victims of the looting seem to be, in many cases, immigrants.

Perhaps some of those who bang on about immigration might want to take a minute to look into who is causing the trouble here, and who is at the rough end of it.

Povertyandeprivation is just a cheap excuse. There are other factors at work here: cultural and social factors which need to be addressed, and addressed soon.

Goodness knows how, though.
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  #434  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:45
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Daring. With too much FB time, not a real life and work time, too much PC war games, without anybody providing any healthy commentaries, too much fake pc interaction that make kids numb to real hurting and real people. You can't hurt your dad so easily when you spit in his face, but constant online killing and war games might make you set a local church on fire just fine, since you don't face a real, human hurt, in real life. You don't look into those shop owners faces.

It's tragic really. But it's been in the making for decades.

By the way, horses? Cops on horses? Why hasn't the country equipped their cops better, all these restrictions, it's a joke. If a teen hooligan does not fear a cop, than we are obviously in a trouble.
OMG!

Now it's because of the video games ! (and note you don't talk about RAP which clearly promotes violence)

That "lost generation" is composed of individuals. ALL OF THEM always had the opportunity to attend FREE LIBRARIES in their spare time. All of them could TAKE the knowledge wherever they can, for free.

I had all the magazines I could wish for, for free (Video games magazines) at the library. I could listen music for free at the library. Every one has the same chances. Of course I was growing with other who had the "easy life": selling drugs, buying car, whatever- They haven't changed me because of their "fake success".

Now you attack video games?
I played on average 10 hours a day of "violent" games when being teenager. I haven't turned a nutter or criminal. And on the contrary, I had the most active social life ever, knowing easily 50 people around, meeting them regularly for "tournaments", etc...



But please, let's follow your logic:
They're victim, it's video games who made them violent. Let's pity them!


PS: I just seen a violent movie, I'm going to buy a AK 47 and shot my workmates. You know it's ain't my fault I was poor and I played too much videogames!


OH let's play a game:
Update the list of excuses to those poor young victims, lost generation:
1- It's because of Obiwan Kenobi
2- It's because they had played "street fighter" in their youth
3- It's because of their criminal teacher: he forced them to do homeworks, how revolting
4- It's because of my boss: the kunt earns 4 times more money than me. It's so upsetting that the rioters felt the violent mood
5- It's because of foreigners in Switzerland
6- It's because of Adidas: they're too expensive clothes!
7- It's because of the books: they're full of tiny letters, who understand that??
8- It's because the gangster was cleaning his Gun but the bullet went out on it's own
9- Insert your own excuses
  #435  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:45
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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the army have already said they wouldn't want them, the army nowadays is nothing like it was when the uk last had national service, sure they need some cannon fodder but they mainly need intelligent skilled people, not mindless thugs.

the last thing the uk needs is these idiots trained up how to really use guns and knives.
To go back the the Swiss comparison, the Swiss army isn't really there to fight campaigns or invade other countries or fight for cheap oil. It's there more as a character building thing to make boys to men and to give older guys who have forgotten or whitewashed the darker sides to have something to reminice about on their Stammtisch.

So maybe we should stop asking the military commanders what they want and start telling them what they can get.
  #436  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:46
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

My son sent me some video shot from his apartment window; makes it more real than I would like

In the 80's I was living in Surrey & commuting by car to London during the Brixton riots.

It was all a bit Kafkaesque;
During the night there were riots, looting, bloodshed & arson.
During the morning & evening rush hours the commuters cars were driving in & out of London as usual.
  #437  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:49
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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how to fix it? well get rid of school and police league tables for a start, a school doesn't want a trouble maker, they drag down there stats, so they are more then happy if they don't turn up

allow the police to stop whoever they want, when they want

make the kids stay at school, they don't turn up then actually enforce the current laws (parents can goto prison etc)

at 16 (school leaving age) you have 4 choices, and only these choices, and until you are 18 you have to stay in these choices, so lose your job and you have to goto college for example.

1. Job
2. higher education
3. apprentice
4. armed forces

at 18 you have the same choices again, unless you complete these choices (or are in one of them) you get no benefits at all.

if you have never contributed to the 'system' (and the 4 choices count as contribution) then you are entitled to nothing, simple.

yes it will cost, and take some political will, but what other choices are there

(apart from taking off and nuking from orbit)
Yup. I think making a teen realize somebody will always pick up where he left of, is the worst thing at that specific age. Either family or benefits will pamper, it's not really constructive for him to think he has to earn his place. But it's not only this, it's boredom, family disinterest, zero school influence, stigmatizing crap that really is not so stigmatizing but in this age group and place and time it is...The girl version of these riots are really young moms. What else is there to do, when you have zero idea what to do with your life, throw a rock or have a kid to fill a void. Both cries for extreme experience to kill a feeling of over-sized inferiority complex.

I would make all the hooligans rebuilt the communities, churches and shops they burnt. Community service, work there for food tickets. Make plans on how to make things better.
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  #438  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:51
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as I said earlier on this thread if your unemployed in the uk then you qualify for free education, free evening classes, re-training etc etc a good mechanic will never be unemployed, an good plumber, electrician, plasterer, painter etc etc will never be unemployed so there is no reason at all someone from one of these areas cannot get off there arses and make something of themselves, but sitting around watching tv, smoking, drinking, reproducing and bitching about bankers is much easier.
Respectfully, that's a load of bollocks. As someone who was recently unemployed in the UK, albeit briefly, the opportunities available are token. I'm already well qualified in my field, but if I wasn't already, or lacked experience in my field I would have been devastated. Yes, if you are already a good plumber or a good electrician etc, you've got a chance of employment. But if you think the free education offered can find you a job you are mistaken.
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Old 10.08.2011, 10:51
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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how to fix it? well get rid of school and police league tables for a start, a school doesn't want a trouble maker, they drag down there stats, so they are more then happy if they don't turn up

allow the police to stop whoever they want, when they want

make the kids stay at school, they don't turn up then actually enforce the current laws (parents can goto prison etc)

at 16 (school leaving age) you have 4 choices, and only these choices, and until you are 18 you have to stay in these choices, so lose your job and you have to goto college for example.

1. Job
2. higher education
3. apprentice
4. armed forces

at 18 you have the same choices again, unless you complete these choices (or are in one of them) you get no benefits at all.

if you have never contributed to the 'system' (and the 4 choices count as contribution) then you are entitled to nothing, simple.

yes it will cost, and take some political will, but what other choices are there

(apart from taking off and nuking from orbit)
About "at 18 you have the same choices again, unless you complete these choices (or are in one of them) you get no benefits at all."

so there are always jobs and/or apprenticeships available? I think you miss the point that there are not enough available!!
Places in higher education are also limited & require qualifications.
The army today is quite small & being quite savagely reduced in the UK

Then you have no benefits & therefore your only choice is to turn to crime? Sounds like an intelligent solution?
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Old 10.08.2011, 10:51
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I would make all the hooligans rebuilt the communities, churches and shops they burnt.
How?

They'd not bother to turn up. They'd lark about. They'd break stuff and nick stuff. They'd take four hour lunch breaks.

And nobody would be able to do a thing to stop them.
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