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View Poll Results: Why are these riots happening (vote for the closest to your beliefs)
The Duggan shooting is the primary cause of the riots 4 4.12%
The riots are caused because of social injustice 9 9.28%
The riots are caused because of too much "justice"/benefits etc 5 5.15%
The riots are spontaneous/opportunistic, just criminals seeing an opportunity. 75 77.32%
The riots are caused by too much immigration 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #441  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:57
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Respectfully, that's a load of bollocks. As someone who was recently unemployed in the UK, albeit briefly, the opportunities available are token. I'm already well qualified in my field, but if I wasn't already, or lacked experience in my field I would have been devastated. Yes, if you are already a good plumber or a good electrician etc, you've got a chance of employment. But if you think the free education offered can find you a job you are mistaken.

respectfully it isn't! night classes are either free or heavily subsidised, I personally know a guy who spent many years purposefully unemployed in the uk doing course after course, from IT to electrician, and is now a fully qualified sparky all at the governments expense. Just because the options where not relevant to you, or you couldn't find them doesn't mean they are not there.
  #442  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:58
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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About "at 18 you have the same choices again, unless you complete these choices (or are in one of them) you get no benefits at all."

so there are always jobs and/or apprenticeships available? I think you miss the point that there are not enough available!!
Places in higher education are also limited & require qualifications.
The army today is quite small & being quite savagely reduced in the UK

Then you have no benefits & therefore your only choice is to turn to crime? Sounds like an intelligent solution?

I never said it would be cheap or easy, and there aren't barriers in the way
  #443  
Old 10.08.2011, 10:59
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Anyway, what are we going to do about hordes of British kids terrorising Kurdish, Somali and Bangladeshi communities?

Why is this aspect of the trouble being ignored by the press?
  #444  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:00
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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But please, let's follow your logic:
They're victim, it's video games who made them violent. Let's pity them!
No pity for anyone. If you just label a hooligan a hooligan without any simple thought about it nor wanting to understand why, chances are the min he can he will do it again, and a bigger riot. The fact kids play pc games is not making them violent. The fact they spend days, without their families being ever interested in how their kids spend their time, or they do not dare, or they are stoned in the living room, or they are busy taking care of kids they have in order to have more cash on child support, makes some kids numb. And in the time of his life when he wants to be noticed. Violence is fascinating, and if nobody gives any other emotions, they will seek the thrill from violence. You know the theory on the most disruptive kid in the class setting usually just wanting to be noticed, right..Bring in the boundaries, but also interest. They still need to have structure.

Why is an attempt to understand psychology of this viewed as an attempt to shift responsibility or, excuse? It is not. They should be punished. Not excused. But understanding what is happening is important.
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  #445  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:02
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Anyway, what are we going to do about hordes of British kids terrorising Kurdish, Somali and Bangladeshi communities?

Why is this aspect of the trouble being ignored by the press?
Well we should start by blocking SONY's PSN. Without video games those kids won't use any form of violence.

They will radically change and throw them flowers!
  #446  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:05
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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respectfully it isn't! night classes are either free or heavily subsidised, I personally know a guy who spent many years purposefully unemployed in the uk doing course after course, from IT to electrician, and is now a fully qualified sparky all at the governments expense. Just because the options where not relevant to you, or you couldn't find them doesn't mean they are not there.
There were more options for free training in the past but they are few and far between now. Generally, to qualify for free training you would need to be on Income Support or similar benefit and long-term unemployed. Funding would normally only cover the first course up to NVQ2.

In reality, many of the people who qualify for free courses cannot be encouraged to attend. Those who want to attend often don't qualify for the courses.
  #447  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:06
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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There were more options for free training in the past but they are few and far between now. Generally, to qualify for free training you would need to be on Income Support or similar benefit and long-term unemployed. Funding would normally only cover the first course up to NVQ2.

In reality, many of the people who qualify for free courses cannot be encouraged to attend.

and right there is the issue, they don't want to

the kind of people who do want to aren't the kind of people who have been rioting
  #448  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:08
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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How?

They'd not bother to turn up. They'd lark about. They'd break stuff and nick stuff. They'd take four hour lunch breaks.
Absolutely all of them? Even those who throw a rock just because their friend did, and there was nobody to punish them there at that time? Separation usually affects courage..

Well, you gota start somewhere...

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And nobody would be able to do a thing to stop them
Maybe that's the system that is missing. Enable authorities to actually be able to do something. Cops first.

I think if you make the other alternative punishments unappealing, then they might pick up. Coddling never worked.

I do not think this desperation and cruelty is particularly brittish, but maybe ignored and spoiled modern Western kids..Poor quality schooling, disintegration of family, larger family not disciplining anymore, teachers not being able to go after culprits, etc.
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  #449  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:11
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I personally know a guy who spent many years purposefully unemployed in the uk doing course after course, from IT to electrician, and is now a fully qualified sparky all at the governments expense.
How long ago was that? Yes, there used to be useful offerings, and the Job Centre used to have jobs that didn't require you to already have years of experience. But it is a different situation now.
  #450  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:12
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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One thing has struck me, reading all the reports and watching the footage: the participants in the looting all seem to be native-born British; the victims of the looting seem to be, in many cases, immigrants.

Perhaps some of those who bang on about immigration might want to take a minute to look into who is causing the trouble here, and who is at the rough end of it.

Povertyandeprivation is just a cheap excuse. There are other factors at work here: cultural and social factors which need to be addressed, and addressed soon.

Goodness knows how, though.
The whole system is a catastrophe.
A 16-year-old girl has a baby so the state gives her money.
She needs somewhere to live so she gets a Council flat.
She has another baby by another bloke, so she gets a bigger Council flat.
She hasn't taken any school-leaver exams because she hasn't finished school, and can't get a job, so she just goes on getting unemployment benefit and housing allowance, and she and all her kids are covered by the National Health system too. She can even get a live-in boyfriend, so long as he remains 'hidden' from the authorities. Then she can have even more children.
Often the girl has no parenting skills, because she came from similar circumstances herself, and the blokes don't stay around long enough to have any input (other than the obvious)
You only have to see pictures of feral kids hanging around bus shelters with litre bottles of cider in their hands, and it doesn't take too much imagination to envisage what they get up to when the sex-urge kicks in.
There's just too much 'easy money' handed out in the UK and not enough discipline.
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  #451  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:13
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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No pity for anyone. If you just label a hooligan a hooligan without any simple thought about it nor wanting to understand why, chances are the min he can he will do it again, and a bigger riot. The fact kids play pc games is not making them violent. The fact they spend days, without their families being ever interested in how their kids spend their time, or they do not dare, or they are stoned in the living room, or they are busy taking care of kids they have in order to have more cash on child support, makes some kids numb. And in the time of his life when he wants to be noticed. Violence is fascinating, and if nobody gives any other emotions, they will seek the thrill from violence. You know the theory on the most disruptive kid in the class setting usually just wanting to be noticed, right..Bring in the boundaries, but also interest. They still need to have structure.

Why is an attempt to understand psychology of this viewed as an attempt to shift responsibility or, excuse? It is not. They should be punished. Not excused. But understanding what is happening is important.
Then say "bad parenting" instead of saying they played too much war games.
And also include in your criticism RAP music which, in my opinion, is much more harmful than any other possible reasons: it feeds their need to be the victims, the poor oppressed citizen, and invite them to be the local gansgta in return for fame.

And Understanding psychology is fine only if it comes with decent adequates measures and comments. Such as not having an "understanding approach" when the guy has a gun.
  #452  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:15
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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How long ago was that? Yes, there used to be useful offerings, and the Job Centre used to have jobs that didn't require you to already have years of experience. But it is a different situation now.

he qualified at the end of last year, for long termers the options are still there, and the evening classes are also still available, I would bet large sums of money most of the rioters would qualify for free courses.

the whole point being if you are a mechanic, plaster, painter etc then you can pretty much be self employed, even work on the side, get some appreciation of working for money, maybe the government should further relax the rules on how much you can earn on the side before you lose benefits.
  #453  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:19
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The whole system is a catastrophe.
A 16-year-old girl has a baby so the state gives her money.
She needs somewhere to live so she gets a Council flat.
She has another baby by another bloke, so she gets a bigger Council flat.
She hasn't taken any school-leaver exams because she hasn't finished school, and can't get a job, so she just goes on getting unemployment benefit and housing allowance, and she and all her kids are covered by the National Health system too. She can even get a live-in boyfriend, so long as he remains 'hidden' from the authorities. Then she can have even more children.
Often the girl has no parenting skills, because she came from similar circumstances herself, and the blokes don't stay around long enough to have any input (other than the obvious)
You only have to see pictures of feral kids hanging around bus shelters with litre bottles of cider in their hands, and it doesn't take too much imagination to envisage what they get up to when the sex-urge kicks in.
There's just too much 'easy money' handed out in the UK and not enough discipline.

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  #454  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:21
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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How long ago was that? Yes, there used to be useful offerings, and the Job Centre used to have jobs that didn't require you to already have years of experience. But it is a different situation now.
Guys i'm sorry to interrupt this thread but I just wanted to remind you all that we are all deeply fu.cked regularly:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news.../mps-expenses/

I think it's important while you're debating with job centers, while you've been paying thousands and thousands pounds in taxes...

While your "leaders", or social elite parasites are busy creating new rules to defend their interests, or too busy to pocket expenses.


Yes Job centers are useless for you, but not for them: they can use them as an excuse of their good actions to justify their employment: look they increased the job centers staff to deal with the crisis (yes it's not a solution or it won't create job for the masses but it's ok: everyone accept those kind of lies).

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  #455  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:21
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

blimey, some of you should be barristers!!
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  #456  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:23
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Then say "bad parenting" instead of saying they played too much war games.
And also include in your criticism RAP music which, in my opinion, is much more harmful than any other possible reasons: it feeds their need to be the victims, the poor oppressed citizen, and invite them to be the local gansgta in return for fame.

And Understanding psychology is fine only if it comes with decent adequates measures and comments. Such as not having an "understanding approach" when the guy has a gun.
Bad parenting includes too much pc time, me thinks. But some kids might be sensitive unfortunately to pc violence/tv violence even if parents try to prevent this, and allow just a bit. I think having too much time to zone out into the world of war games is harmful, just like having too much time to get hooked on EF instead of having normal, real life and real human interaction. I am not really sure of the rap crap, you cannot really censor that, just like you cannot censor your kiddo listening to some vampaire goth crap, but you can offer as a parent, certain commentary (just like maybe limiting pc time as a parent, for yourself and your kid), and as a teacher, as a community. Values. Principles. Long long minute work of the entire society, including imposing structure and boundaries, reasonable limits. Not freebies.

Nobody said anything about having understanding approach when a guy has a gun. I think police had to pick up as a buffer, unfairly, without being able to do much to actually even protect themselves, not mentioning other citizens. So, cops and nice folks and shop owners paid for a complex rotten situ.
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  #457  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:23
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The whole system is a catastrophe.
A 16-year-old girl has a baby so the state gives her money.
She needs somewhere to live so she gets a Council flat.
She has another baby by another bloke, so she gets a bigger Council flat.
She hasn't taken any school-leaver exams because she hasn't finished school, and can't get a job, so she just goes on getting unemployment benefit and housing allowance, and she and all her kids are covered by the National Health system too. She can even get a live-in boyfriend, so long as he remains 'hidden' from the authorities. Then she can have even more children.
Often the girl has no parenting skills, because she came from similar circumstances herself, and the blokes don't stay around long enough to have any input (other than the obvious)
You only have to see pictures of feral kids hanging around bus shelters with litre bottles of cider in their hands, and it doesn't take too much imagination to envisage what they get up to when the sex-urge kicks in.
There's just too much 'easy money' handed out in the UK and not enough discipline.
That is an over simplification of the situation. Yes, this type of person does exist. I am sure that it will be seen that some of the rioters are from stable family backgrounds and had a good education. There is a natural tendency in some people to rebel against society. It has gone on for years: Teddy Boys, punks rockers etc. The current group are manifesting their rebellion in a different way. That may be due to the modern media world that we live in.
  #458  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:25
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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he qualified at the end of last year, for long termers the options are still there, and the evening classes are also still available, I would bet large sums of money most of the rioters would qualify for free courses.

the whole point being if you are a mechanic, plaster, painter etc then you can pretty much be self employed, even work on the side, get some appreciation of working for money, maybe the government should further relax the rules on how much you can earn on the side before you lose benefits.
OMG losers' jobs!!
I so want to be a reality TV star!


it's so important that I want my government to use public TV to display those essential values! Please let me donate more money than I do with taxes!!!
  #459  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:26
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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blimey, some of you should be barristers!!
Thank you milud !
  #460  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:30
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

So, to return to my earlier point, which seems to be blithely ignored by press and forum alike: if these young British thugs are so angry with the Metropolitan police, why are they making all the effort to go to Somali, Bangladeshi and Kurdish districts to go a-looting, instead of hopping on the tube and nipping down to New Scotland Yard or Westminster to make their feelings known?

Could it be, perhaps, that this isn't actually a protest at all, but rather a free-for-all crime spree with sinister racial overtones?
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