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View Poll Results: Why are these riots happening (vote for the closest to your beliefs)
The Duggan shooting is the primary cause of the riots 4 4.12%
The riots are caused because of social injustice 9 9.28%
The riots are caused because of too much "justice"/benefits etc 5 5.15%
The riots are spontaneous/opportunistic, just criminals seeing an opportunity. 75 77.32%
The riots are caused by too much immigration 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #601  
Old 10.08.2011, 17:14
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Wow, a woman to my own heart- I wish I could write to say 'thank you'.
How do I copy this to send to friends? (I am a tecky dinosaur, sorry).

Edit, thanks DB.

Last edited by Odile; 10.08.2011 at 17:57.
  #602  
Old 10.08.2011, 17:16
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Quote:
Wow, a woman to my own heart- I wish I could write to say 'thank you'.
How do I copy this to send to friends? (I am a tecky dinosaur, sorry).
Print out the last page and post it. It's the only way I'm afraid
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  #603  
Old 10.08.2011, 17:19
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

I've lived on the dole: it was crap, but not impossible. I also received housing benefit to pay my rent. Had I not accepted every job I was offered, I would also have been entitled to guaranteed interviews, free stamps and stationery and computer training courses. As it was, though, every time my one or two week contract ended, I'd be set back to week zero of my claim. So it goes.

Anyway, I've been reading up on the Broadwater Farm estate, and it looks like quite a lot of money and attention has been poured into the place. There is an enormous playing field next door, a community centre, a brand new children's centre, a new bus route that goes right into the estate, several subsidised 'enterprise units', a football coaching programme and an Inclusive Learning Campus offering homework clubs, employment advice and sports facilities is planned.

So what more can 'the government' actually do? The original problems in the estate, so I read, were a consequence of the badly designed, Le Corbusier-inspired architecture. There were lots of sheltered walkways and dark corners where criminals could lurk, but when the police tried to do something about it, the consequences were disastrous. One might wonder, of course, where these criminals sprang from - after all, we'd been told that these new housing estates, with their spectacular views and wide open spaces, would solve the problems of the slums overnight.

So what, exactly, do the people who live there expect the rest of the population of London to do for them?

Money is clearly not the answer, as it obviously hasn't done much good so far, and one cannot just invent jobs out of thin air. So what do they want?

Oh yeah, I forgot: a new pair of trainers and a widescreen telly.
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  #604  
Old 10.08.2011, 17:34
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Quote:
Wow, a woman to my own heart- I wish I could write to say 'thank you'.
How do I copy this to send to friends? (I am a tecky dinosaur, sorry).
You can copy and send them this URL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFzGgYQ6hJI
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  #605  
Old 10.08.2011, 17:39
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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You can copy and send them this URL.
I find it very hard to understand what's she's saying without some kind of rap beat going on in unison, innit?
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  #606  
Old 10.08.2011, 17:42
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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So what do they want?
They don't know what they want and they are most probably sick and tired of that feeling.

I believe it is not so much about what the government should do, but rather what it should not do.

The wellfare state takes people's pride and ability to care for themselves away when implemented like we have in the UK and that I believe is creating most of the problems.

People need to feel empowered. These rioters clearly don't feel empowered so are finding another way to gain that feeling.

The solution is long and hard. At first you can only slap them down and tell them that this sort of behaviour will result in getting really badly fu**ed by the police using water cannons, rubber bullets, live bullets when needed. After that dialogue can take place but really it is going to take 20 years to undo the social situation that exists and as created these situations. 20 years of social and cultural education to make people believe that to live in a good society, they have to create it for themselves.
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  #607  
Old 10.08.2011, 17:54
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I find it very hard to understand what's she's saying without some kind of rap beat going on in unison, innit?
Oh my days, maybe this will help?
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  #608  
Old 10.08.2011, 18:08
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

I'd just also like to say: that just because one might wear a hood, speaks London (UK Patois) slang and has a swagger it doesn't mean they are criminals.

I used to work for a big distributor of underground music labels in Tottenham (just off where the riots started) & I know many of these people channel their aggression into Art in the form of Rapping, MCing, producing music, etc. Call them gangs if you like, but weren't UB40 a gang (of unemployed friends) once?

Some of them get lucky (UK underground music feeds mainstream pop in the UK & US too). Some don't and most are law abiding. So let's not stereotype or be smart...
  #609  
Old 10.08.2011, 18:14
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Of course we all made it, all the way from the gutter..There are more interesting life stories here on the forum, than people I have met in real life. But us is not the kids who are going bezerk right at the moment.

Kids who lack perspective and life experience will only treat the environment according to the value they assign to it. And apparently, there is none for them. How do we make them want to change their attitude...Cops to start with, deterrents, withrawing cusioning support and conditioning it.

But how to motivate, when the family structure is often non existent and apart fro their buddies in crime, there is nobody they'd aspire to impress..
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  #610  
Old 10.08.2011, 18:58
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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So how come you don't have the same 'opportunists' rioting during times of plenty. It just goes to show how heavily biased this thread is, I am wasting my time with people who don't read or try to find out the facts but argue grammar, spelling or semantics. !
UK riots: What turns people into looters


Former Manchester United hooligan Tony O'Reilly, says there is a similarity between this week's looting and the football violence he took part in for three decades.

It boils down to the buzz, he says. "It's an excitement. You can't take away that thrill - the roar of the crowd. That sense of a group of men, something's happening."

For most, the motivation is the thrill, with the "free stuff" just a bonus. But not for the ringleaders who manipulate the mob to target high-value shops.

He recalls a rampage through Swiss Cottage in the 1980s when Manchester United fans ended up looting a jewellery store. "The mob itself wasn't looking for jewellers but a few of the bright criminals used the mob and bystanders and the mob joined in because of the buzz."

To be fair though the people interviewed gave answers mixing from option 2-4 on our poll
  #611  
Old 10.08.2011, 19:00
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Kids who lack perspective and life experience will only treat the environment according to the value they assign to it. And apparently, there is none for them.
Survival of the fittest. These kids have no value for anything because they have been handed all the basics like food and water and some education and told that they have all the chances in the world.

But most have not been on the brink of starvation, most have never been truly thirsty and they cannot find any reason to rise above their current situation.

They have not been taught that to get luxuries in life, one has to work very hard. They have been taught that earning a lot of money is something to be looked down on because those that do are corrupt fat cats. They have been given such a screwed up view of how the world really works and such a stupid value system by all the groups around them that they find it impossible to relate to the fact that you need to work hard for years and years to earn enough to buy that flat screen TV, let alone the place to watch it.

They get housing for free but don't feel that they can do anything with it as it can be taken away at any time.

Somebody has to explain to them that those things that they are given are going to get taken away from them now because they have been taking them for granted. Those that cannot step up and take accountability for their own society are going to starve to death in the gutters. It is the most horrible thing to do but at some stage we have to let the little ones take care of themselves...and if they can't well then perhaps we should have prepared them for life a little better.

I don't think that anybody has explained it to them in these terms but I have a bit of a feeling that quite a lot of this acting out behaviour at the moment is a "don't you dare take anything more away from me, I have power me, innit" and is based on the fact that they can see that the current political direction leads to the end of the welfare state.

But Mother Nature knows best and it will end up in survival of the fittest.

Personally I don't side with either the government or the rioters. They are both doing stupid shit and are paying the price.

I do feel sorry for the police and a lot of people who are between the rock and the hard place though.

Really, I am critical and yes, I did jump ship, but I truly wish the UK the best of luck through this very hard time and just hope that they can see through to some real solutions.
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  #612  
Old 10.08.2011, 19:01
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Quote:
There were lots of sheltered walkways and dark corners where criminals could lurk, but when the police tried to do something about it, the consequences were disastrous.
What were the consequences? Where can I best read about this?
  #613  
Old 10.08.2011, 19:07
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Great couple of points here:
Quote:
He says looting makes "powerless people suddenly feel powerful" and that is "very intoxicating".
Quote:
"You cannot riot on your own. A one-man riot is a tantrum. At some point the bigger crowds confronting the police realise that they are in control."
And
Quote:
Prof Pitts says riots are complex events and cannot be explained away as "just thuggery".
And most poinantly
Quote:
"They have no career to think about. They are not 'us'. They live out there on the margins, enraged, disappointed, capable of doing some awful things."
  #614  
Old 10.08.2011, 19:37
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Just talked to my daughter in London. She said one of her colleagues said that in Clapham every business had been smashed and looted apart from...


WATERSTONES

it would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.
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  #615  
Old 10.08.2011, 19:39
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I find it very hard to understand what's she's saying without some kind of rap beat going on in unison, innit?
Résumé: she is telling them to fight for a cause, not Footlocker trainers and flat-screen TV's - and to stop attacking and destroying their own.
Good on her.
  #616  
Old 10.08.2011, 19:56
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Policeman on duty in St Johns Road in Clapham, on the front line for over 8 hours, drops his riot shield and runs back down the street, into Sheigate Street and then down Leathwaite Road where he is stopped. "Where do you think you are going, Sonny?" "Sorry, Sarge, I have been on the front for over 8 hours, pelted with stones, bricks and petrol bombs. I needed a break from it."
"I'm not a Sergeant. I am a Chief Inspector."
"Sorry Sir, I didn't realise that I had run that far....."
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  #617  
Old 10.08.2011, 21:01
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Interesting article in the Irish Independent newspaper:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...s-2844058.html

You're unlikely to see anything like it in the mainstream British press.
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  #618  
Old 10.08.2011, 21:24
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Interesting article in the Irish Independent newspaper:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...s-2844058.html

You're unlikely to see anything like it in the mainstream British press.
I'm back Shorrick chase me to the other thread so I'm running away, OOOh he's mad at me. But anyway couldn't resist posting this; all the theories on this thread remind me of this:

  #619  
Old 10.08.2011, 21:25
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

This interview makes it pretty clear the people rioting are doing it just because they can...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/9560646.stm
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Old 10.08.2011, 21:39
 
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I like the idea of chain gangs sweeping the streets. Perhaps we should reopen some workhouses?! Good old Tory thinking, they made plenty of cash on that a few years back.

I christen this "Tory Logic"
Sorry, but nobody has been talking about opening workhouses now really have they? No.

But if people are going to claim benefits, which the rest of society has to pay for through employment, what is wrong with them positively contributing to the community in which they live in in some way in return for their handouts? Perhaps helping with youth community programmes, helping keep their areas tidy and clean, helping the more vulnerable or less able in society? There are loads of things that people who supposedly could not get a job to do to make a difference to their environment and those around them. I genuinely can't understand what would be wrong with that.

Last edited by MathNut; 10.08.2011 at 22:30. Reason: fixed quote tags
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