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View Poll Results: Why are these riots happening (vote for the closest to your beliefs)
The Duggan shooting is the primary cause of the riots 4 4.12%
The riots are caused because of social injustice 9 9.28%
The riots are caused because of too much "justice"/benefits etc 5 5.15%
The riots are spontaneous/opportunistic, just criminals seeing an opportunity. 75 77.32%
The riots are caused by too much immigration 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #741  
Old 12.08.2011, 15:35
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Is that kind of violence acceptable?

http://youtu.be/HqeNyh1NeEM
  #742  
Old 12.08.2011, 15:45
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Is that kind of violence acceptable?

http://youtu.be/HqeNyh1NeEM
Of course not. There are bad elements in the police forse as well right? They are not all saints. I remember an analysis from the May Day riots a number of years back that said that there were violent elements in both the anti-globalisation camps and the police reservists camps that really just saw the whole thing as an excuse to have a huge fight and beat the hell out of each other.

A quick not for people that don't like to see violence, don't click on the link above.
  #743  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:01
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I remember stories in papers of people being told to take down the English flag on various occasions (although can't find links).
It's because the stories usualy turn out to be fabrications or massive exagerations. The articles are quietly withdrawn by the papers.
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  #744  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:17
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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It's because the stories usualy turn out to be fabrications or massive exagerations. The articles are quietly withdrawn by the papers.
Yes, anybody that had asked me to take down a St. George's Cross would have been told in a very polite way exactly what they could do with that idea and all of the interesting non-solar illuminated places they could put it after ensuring that it had been folded into something with very sharp edges.
  #745  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:18
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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It's because the stories usualy turn out to be fabrications or massive exagerations. The articles are quietly withdrawn by the papers.
Nope. It happened in our village - the newsagent was ordered by his area manager to remove the cross of St George from his window on St George's Day, "so as not to offend anyone".

I got that straight from the horse's mouth.
  #746  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:19
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Reminds me of those old sci-fi movies ......where the world is ruled by crazy mobs and everyone steals and kills ... and the earth is just a desert ...... was it Mel Gibson starring in them....?

Now we got the mobs, the desert is happening, law and order is going down the drain...... We just need Mel to take over running things, with Arnie Schwartzenegger in his steel outfit ...... and a couple of drones.. with mega automatic guns, lazer guns ........
Yes we really need VIGILANTEs: our legals systems are too rubbish, too slow, encumbered, inefficient.

As you have seen the government can only use repression to scare off the criminals and it hardly works.

The victims are honest workers or citizens.

I'd say in those exceptional circumstances, screw the law and the official legal system, bring the pepper sprays, tazers, bunch of vigilante groups catching obvious rioters, giving them a well deserved beating and dropping them into the front of Police Stations.

Feck to the political correctness, and the faith into a crappy deficient legal system!!
  #747  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:24
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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the newsagent was ordered by his area manager to remove the cross of St George from his window on St George's Day, "so as not to offend anyone".
Well in this case the horse was really more of a commercial creature right?

I don't think it is unreasonable for a business owner to ask the business to remain neutral if he so wants.

For individuals acting in their private capacity, that is something different.
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  #748  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:24
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

This was discussed last night on Question Time. Although most agreed that people were right to protect their properties and businesses, there was some concerns raised. Who decides who the right or wrong vigilantes are?
The EDL (English Defence League) already has groups going around with baseball bats looking for any foreigners to bash - knowing they'd get away with it in the current circumstances. Do we want that?
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  #749  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:33
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Nope. It happened in our village - the newsagent was ordered by his area manager to remove the cross of St George from his window on St George's Day, "so as not to offend anyone".

I got that straight from the horse's mouth.
As Judge Judy loves to say:

'You can't tell me what he said Sir, that's hearsay'
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Old 12.08.2011, 16:35
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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This was discussed last night on Question Time. Although most agreed that people were right to protect their properties and businesses, there was some concerns raised. Who decides who the right or wrong vigilantes are?
The EDL (English Defence League) already has groups going around with baseball bats looking for any foreigners to bash - knowing they'd get away with it in the current circumstances. Do we want that?
I agree but it was no time for debates or deciding the right and wrong:

The vigilente acting as defenders can target the muggers with electronic equipment in hands, or the one hitting the businesses.

Anyway even for "nasty vigilente" or "good vigilente" it's illegal, the police would try to arrest them anyway. It's against the law. Everyone would know it.

But it should not stop a few braves to target muggers, give them a fair beating with non lethal ways, and drop them to the front of the police station, prior to disappear.
  #751  
Old 12.08.2011, 17:08
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The vigilente acting as defenders can target the muggers with electronic equipment in hands, or the one hitting the businesses.
If somebody touches the courier that is carrying my new TV set.....
  #752  
Old 12.08.2011, 17:19
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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If somebody touches the courier that is carrying my new TV set.....

does he have a mask on and will be running it to you at midnight without the box??
  #753  
Old 12.08.2011, 17:30
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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does he have a mask on and will be running it to you at midnight without the box??
Could have a helmet on, late night deliveries cost a lot but do happen and NO, that bastard better not be carrying the thing around without the box, beat the hell out of him just on principle.
  #754  
Old 12.08.2011, 17:44
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Is that kind of violence acceptable?

http://youtu.be/HqeNyh1NeEM

Those dishing out the violence here are also sort of 'hoodies', no?
  #755  
Old 12.08.2011, 17:55
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Those dishing out the violence here are also sort of 'hoodies', no?
Yes, they just wear a different "uniform" and pretend to be on a different "side". There is really no difference in the behaviour.



VS.



I have specifically choosen unrelated incidents here and I am not claiming to know the exact feelings/motivations/reasons behind the picutres...but they evoke strangely similar feelings in me.

There is good and bad amongst every group.
  #756  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:03
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I agree but it was no time for debates or deciding the right and wrong:

The vigilente acting as defenders can target the muggers with electronic equipment in hands, or the one hitting the businesses.

Anyway even for "nasty vigilente" or "good vigilente" it's illegal, the police would try to arrest them anyway. It's against the law. Everyone would know it.

But it should not stop a few braves to target muggers, give them a fair beating with non lethal ways, and drop them to the front of the police station, prior to disappear.
Has anyone seen falling Down about guy who just has a bad day


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The film stars Michael Douglas in the lead role of William Foster (credited as "D-Fens"), a divorcee and unemployed former defense engineer. The film centers on Foster as he goes on a violent rampage across the city of Los Angeles, trying to reach the house of his estranged ex-wife in time for his daughter's birthday party. Along the way, a series of encounters, both trivial and provocative, cause him to react with violence and make sardonic observations on life, poverty, the economy, and commercialism. Martin Prendergast (Robert Duvall), an aging LAPD Sergeant on the day of his retirement, faces his own frustrations with socially accepted spinelessness, even as he tracks down Foster.
The title of the film, referring to Foster's mental collapse, is taken from the title of the nursery rhyme "London Bridge Is Falling Down", which appears several times during the film. It also references London Bridge located in Lake Havasu City, Arizona, which is where Prendergast's wife wants to relocate after he retires.
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  #757  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:15
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Both your picture show people who are clearly identifiable. The policeman in your picture is carrying on his job and I see nothing wrong with his action if he is on a genuine raid for genuine reasons.

My link shows non identifiable police beating up a kid to a pulp. The only kid who stopped - and who should have been arrested had he committed offences prior to this video - not beaten and kicked. Something to do with 'reasonable force' and keeping control in difficult circumstances. The kid may well be bad and deserve severe punishment, but not this, surely?
  #758  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:41
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Yes, it was all about the expression of thier faces. Raised eye brows, mouths open in primal scream. That was the point.

I have seen many picutres of violence that show exactly the same, both from police and from criminals. I just did not think that it was nessessary to show that sort of thing as it can be pretty upsetting.

Really what I am trying to point out is that these are two people that may or may not be doing things for totally different reasons or perhaps the same reasons. I don't know.

What I do know if that thier faces have the same expressions on them and they are both destroying things. I am just trying to make a point about how people feel and react in these situations.
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  #759  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:47
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

It's just adrenaline in both cases. It's hard to properly smash things without it ;)
  #760  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:52
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

And I remember that in Desmond Morris's book The Naked Ape, there were two pictures side by side; one was of the face of a woman in pain, the other was the face of a woman having an orgasm. It was impossible to say which was which.

So maybe human facial expressions aren't always a particularly reliable indicator of underlying human emotions, activities, experiences or motivations.


If I was to take a stab at it, I'd say - inferring mostly from the mouth/jaw positions - that the first face was indicating exertion, and the second was indicating aggression.

Others may read other things into the very same details
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