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View Poll Results: Why are these riots happening (vote for the closest to your beliefs)
The Duggan shooting is the primary cause of the riots 4 4.12%
The riots are caused because of social injustice 9 9.28%
The riots are caused because of too much "justice"/benefits etc 5 5.15%
The riots are spontaneous/opportunistic, just criminals seeing an opportunity. 75 77.32%
The riots are caused by too much immigration 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #801  
Old 13.08.2011, 17:04
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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This is probably the worst thing I have ever read. Most journos wouldn't get a friendly word from me at the bar, this guy'd get a smack.

He was invited to dinner at a wealthy household, fed and watered and was a party to some class humour and he decides to use his stubby little pulpit to berate his hosts in the only way they cannot respond to? And they're rude?

And the MPs? The expenses scandal? I say to MPs:"go for it" whatever they claimed was tiny in comparison to the expenses of businessmen, and they have to do a job too.

And have we forgotten about the state of honesty in journalism lately? If it wasn't all the MPs and wasn't all the journalists why are we speaking about the former rather than the latter?

Poor telegraph. Soon you'll just have Hoppy left.
So you are saying that the information in the the article is false? The various things listed didn't happen?

Or are you just upset by the interpretation of the possible meaning of those events and behaviors. In otherwords, pointing out the foibles of a specific demographic offends your sensitivities. Just trying to get a handle on where you stand here.

If I am mistaken, then please elucidate the errors or falsehoods in the article. The only thing I saw that was debatable was the rationalization for some of the behaviours that occurred, not the actual occurrences themselves. The facts themselves don't seem to be in question.
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  #802  
Old 13.08.2011, 17:14
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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But the rioters have this defence: they are just following the example set by senior and respected figures in society.
I can just imagine one of these ruffians thinking before they go out

'You know what. I was looking up the MPs expenses in the Guardian the other day during my daily reading of all the best broadsheets and noticed that someone bought a Bang & Olfson TV worth several thousand pounds. This was legal but clearly not within the spirit of the law. I think I'm going to go and burn down a department store and smash up some police cars.'
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  #803  
Old 13.08.2011, 17:35
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Living on benefits aint a paradise yet its still incredible some people prefer it than to go out and do something productive, so cant be that bad either i guess .
I see your point. The important question here is: how 'productive' is it to sell tobacco, alcohol, engage in prostitution, gambling or anything that is mentally disrupting and deceiving such as working in marketing? As far as I see it, those who are honest workers most of the time are the real rioters, inducing youngsters into alcohol, gambling, tobacco ect, and it is perfectly legal... In this insane society it is (in the long term) actually better not to serve huge corporations and be slaves of profit mechanisms and live by very modest means. The problems with these youngsters is that they are educated by society that you should always have more, buy more, better, bigger, this is the underlying social paradigma. And when you happen not to be able to do such things because your background is despicable, and your parents conceived you only to get benefits or as a mistake, there you go you have these problems. I believe, it would be much saner to instruct seemingly hopeless people to work the land and grow some vegetables organically, at least to give them a sense of satisfaction that is actually needed even by the artificiality and alienation driven 'rich'. This applies to any place in the world where these things happen, not just in the UK
  #804  
Old 13.08.2011, 18:25
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

The good thing is that the rioting has stopped and London is cleaning up and settling down to normal.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...on-Harlem.html
  #805  
Old 13.08.2011, 21:46
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I can just imagine one of these ruffians thinking before they go out

'You know what. I was looking up the MPs expenses in the Guardian the other day during my daily reading of all the best broadsheets and noticed that someone bought a Bang & Olfson TV worth several thousand pounds. This was legal but clearly not within the spirit of the law. I think I'm going to go and burn down a department store and smash up some police cars.'
Well clearly you have never owned a Bang and Olufsen, they are pretty good and they look nice too, no flimsy trim. It's like my sister says about her Aston, once you get used to a certain lifestyle you just can't imagine life without these things. We do tend to assume that people who have never had these things can't miss what they never had.
  #806  
Old 13.08.2011, 22:58
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Gosh, Australia's shrunk!
And I thought this was Zug after all the expats there, shocked by the "revalued" CHF fled the place
  #807  
Old 13.08.2011, 23:35
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Here here.
Absolutely agree!! Or Edgware where my children live!!
  #808  
Old 14.08.2011, 04:31
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Do not taint the anarchists with the riots. The events you see unfolding are the products of ineffective Government and oppressive Laws, not of true anarchists.
Upthehatters you've posted some amazing posts in the past but in this thread you've seemed to me to be a bit out of sorts.
What's happened in your personal life to make you think that the British police would send a car of policemen to execute a small time criminal?
Sorry but you must have some personal axe to grind if you think three British coppers could be in the same car with the sole purpose of taking out some small time gangster.
Please answer honestly. Do you smoke dope?
The only other person to come up with your perspective of this incident is a stoner ,,,,,
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Old 14.08.2011, 04:34
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Upthehatters you've posted some amazing posts in the past but in this thread you've seemed to me to be a bit out of sorts.
What's happened in your personal life to make you think that the British police would send a car of policemen to execute a small time criminal?
Sorry but you must have some personal axe to grind if you think three British coppers could be in the same car with the sole purpose of taking out some small time gangster.
Please answer honestly. Do you smoke dope?
The only other person to come up with your perspective of this incident is a stoner ,,,,,
Who else smokes dope?
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  #810  
Old 14.08.2011, 04:55
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Upthehatters you've posted some amazing posts in the past but in this thread you've seemed to me to be a bit out of sorts.
What's happened in your personal life to make you think that the British police would send a car of policemen to execute a small time criminal?
Sorry but you must have some personal axe to grind if you think three British coppers could be in the same car with the sole purpose of taking out some small time gangster.
Please answer honestly. Do you smoke dope?
The only other person to come up with your perspective of this incident is a stoner ,,,,,
Smell the coffee. This is the Met. They have a history of the same.

No I don't smoke dope. I have a clarity of mind that allows true seeing. Your beliefs and prejudices allow me to ask the same, but I allow ignorance and naivety as an excuse for you. Thinking that a stoner comes up with this is your naive belief that stops you from having to think. When you start to believe liars, you fall into the liars trap. Stop lying to yourself. Start to free your mind and think. If you blame thinking on drugs then think about what you do to your own mind. Your accusations betray you. Obviously I have pricked your conscience and you try ridicule as a way out. That's lame. Tried before and failed. Could do better.
  #811  
Old 14.08.2011, 10:59
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Our father, who art in prison, my mum knows not his name,
thy rioting done, you'll read it in the sun, in Birmingham as it is in London,
give us this day our welfare bread & forgive us for Looting,
as we forgive those who give ASBOS against us,
lead us not into employment but deliver us free housing,
for thine is the petrol bomb, the plunder & all its glories,
forever and ever... Safe innit!
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  #812  
Old 14.08.2011, 14:25
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Think of this another way....

The Bankers looted our economies creating the current hardships but saw fit to pay themselves bonuses.

The Giro cheque dependees felt the pinch but decided to pay themseves a bonus as well.
  #813  
Old 14.08.2011, 14:29
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The Bankers looted our economies creating the current hardships but saw fit to pay themselves bonuses.
The Giro cheque dependees felt the pinch but decided to pay themseves a bonus as well.
Think of it this way.
Which group attacked innocent people and caused them physical harm through violence?
Which group burned down buildings in an indescriminate manner, destroying crucial infrastructure and endangering people's lives.

If you don't like the bankers.....and most of us tend to have a couple of reservations about thier behaviour, make the way they do things illegal and then they can be prosecuted.

Breaking the law is breaking the law.... If you don't agree with the laws, get them changed or move to a place where you like them more. Simples.
  #814  
Old 14.08.2011, 15:45
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Think of it this way.
Which group attacked innocent people and caused them physical harm through violence?
Which group burned down buildings in an indescriminate manner, destroying crucial infrastructure and endangering people's lives.

If you don't like the bankers.....and most of us tend to have a couple of reservations about thier behaviour, make the way they do things illegal and then they can be prosecuted.

Breaking the law is breaking the law.... If you don't agree with the laws, get them changed or move to a place where you like them more. Simples.
Would it have been better if the rioters wore suits?
  #815  
Old 14.08.2011, 15:50
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Would it have been better if the rioters wore suits?
WTF??? What does that have to do with the law?
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  #816  
Old 14.08.2011, 16:07
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

Breaking the law is breaking the law.

Here different versions of a poem (anonymous) that originates from the enclosure acts. Still relevant today methinks.

Quote:
The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from off the goose.

The law demands that we atone
When we take things we do not own
But leaves the lords and ladies fine
Who take things that are yours and mine.

The poor and wretched donít escape
If they conspire the law to break;
This must be so but they endure
Those who conspire to make the law.

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
And geese will still a common lack
Till they go and steal it back.
-- 17th century protest against English enclosure

The law doth punish man or woman
That steals the goose from off the common,
But lets the greater felon loose
That steals the common from the goose.



The law locks up the hapless felon
who steals the goose from off the common,
but lets the greater felon loose
who steals the common from the goose.



They hang the man and flog the woman,
Who steals the goose from off the common,
Yet let the greater villain loose,
That steals the common from the goose.
ó Seventeenth-century English protest rhyme

The fault is great in man or woman
Who steals a goose from off a common;
But what can plead that man's excuse
Who steals a common from a goose?
-Anonymous, in The Tickler Magazine, February 1, 1821.
http://www.wealthandwant.com/docs/Goose_commons.htm
  #817  
Old 14.08.2011, 19:55
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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WTF??? What does that have to do with the law?
The bankers have ruined most of the economies. Think of the consequences of that for the cuts in services that result and peoples lack of money. Some sick people will die where they could have been saved. Some people will be murdered because there is not enough police to protect them. Old age pensioners will die of hypothermia because they can not afford their heating. Children will leave school without a good education. Buildings will burn down if the fire services are cut back. The resplendently dressed bankers have done this and awarded themsleves million pound bonuses. They are NOT breaking the law. Rioters and looters ARE breaking the law. But who has done the most damage to society?

In a sense, looters and rioters are now no longer breaking the law because so long as they remain hooded, the law is powerless to stop them.

Olympics 2012 in London is going to be a "riot" with the police tied up with the Olympics. There is going to be some serious redistribution of wealth done then. And as usual, the lower middle class will be forced to foot the bill.

So........ if you want to loot.... wear a suit....... because then it is legal and OK.
  #818  
Old 14.08.2011, 22:49
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The bankers have ruined most of the economies. Think of the consequences of that for the cuts in services that result and peoples lack of money. Some sick people will die where they could have been saved. Some people will be murdered because there is not enough police to protect them. Old age pensioners will die of hypothermia because they can not afford their heating. Children will leave school without a good education. Buildings will burn down if the fire services are cut back. The resplendently dressed bankers have done this and awarded themsleves million pound bonuses. They are NOT breaking the law. Rioters and looters ARE breaking the law. But who has done the most damage to society?

In a sense, looters and rioters are now no longer breaking the law because so long as they remain hooded, the law is powerless to stop them.

Olympics 2012 in London is going to be a "riot" with the police tied up with the Olympics. There is going to be some serious redistribution of wealth done then. And as usual, the lower middle class will be forced to foot the bill.

So........ if you want to loot.... wear a suit....... because then it is legal and OK.
I'd love to see a looting bill, not just a rioting bill, that also goes back and punishes the looting that has occurred over the past decade or more.

Because, whilst the looting that recently occurred in London and elsewhere was "illegal" the looting that has occurred over the past decade or so was also "illegal." The second class of looters (suits) have so much clout in the system that they have arranged it so that they didn't have to pay the penalties for what they did.

Not to mention, whilst they were getting the taxpayer to foot the bill they also managed to convince the Parliament that they still deserved huge bonuses. So i guess by that yardstick, the suits are much better than the hoodies.
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  #819  
Old 14.08.2011, 23:10
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The bankers have ruined most of the economies.
And the politician that de-regulated the business for a cut and the customers that took these stupid mortgages are not to blame at all right?
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Think of the consequences of that for the cuts in services that result and peoples lack of money. Some sick people will die where they could have been saved. Some people will be murdered because there is not enough police to protect them. Old age pensioners will die of hypothermia because they can not afford their heating. Children will leave school without a good education. Buildings will burn down if the fire services are cut back.
Yes, it is a view that I teach often in my enterprise architecture courses, that finance although not generally seeing it actually run a number of "saftey critical" systems. I won't bore you with the full analysis that leads to this but safe to say that it is not just the banker's fault, society in general has a lot of blame to shoulder as well.
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The resplendently dressed bankers have done this and awarded themsleves million pound bonuses. They are NOT breaking the law. Rioters and looters ARE breaking the law. But who has done the most damage to society?
I don't know, can you judge who has done the most damage and how exactly do you tally the cost? When you try and come up with an answer, do remember that over 60% of the world's "wealth" was created by the bankers in the first place so financial loss and gain might not be a good place to start looking.

You answered the real question over here though...the bankers were not at that stage breaking the law, but the looters were. That is what the question was. Perhaps the law then is at fault and should be changed?

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In a sense, looters and rioters are now no longer breaking the law because so long as they remain hooded, the law is powerless to stop them.
Nope, they may think that but as far as I know, other than some public indecency laws, the clothes that you are wearing generally make very little difference to the crime that you are committing, especially in your proposed case of absolving you of it.

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Olympics 2012 in London is going to be a "riot" with the police tied up with the Olympics. There is going to be some serious redistribution of wealth done then. And as usual, the lower middle class will be forced to foot the bill.
You have some proof of this or are you trying to incite something? I seriously hope that you arn't because this is after all a public forum and that could be seen in a bad light although for all out sakes, let's hope the UK police don't follow this forum...lol.

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So........ if you want to loot.... wear a suit....... because then it is legal and OK.
Just because somebody wears a hoodie does not make them a looter. Just because somebody wears a suit, does not make them an evil banker. I don't know if you ever wear a suit to work, but I find it pretty damn insulting that you would suggest that just because somebody does means that person would go off and loot!
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Old 14.08.2011, 23:19
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And the politician that de-regulated the business for a cut and the customers that took these stupid mortgages are not to blame at all right?

Yes, it is a view that I teach often in my enterprise architecture courses, that finance although not generally seeing it actually run a number of "saftey critical" systems. I won't bore you with the full analysis that leads to this but safe to say that it is not just the banker's fault, society in general has a lot of blame to shoulder as well.

I don't know, can you judge who has done the most damage and how exactly do you tally the cost? When you try and come up with an answer, do remember that over 60% of the world's "wealth" was created by the bankers in the first place so financial loss and gain might not be a good place to start looking.

You answered the real question over here though...the bankers were not at that stage breaking the law, but the looters were. That is what the question was. Perhaps the law then is at fault and should be changed?


Nope, they may think that but as far as I know, other than some public indecency laws, the clothes that you are wearing generally make very little difference to the crime that you are committing, especially in your proposed case of absolving you of it.


You have some proof of this or are you trying to incite something? I seriously hope that you arn't because this is after all a public forum and that could be seen in a bad light although for all out sakes, let's hope the UK police don't follow this forum...lol.


Just because somebody wears a hoodie does not make them a looter. Just because somebody wears a suit, does not make them an evil banker. I don't know if you ever wear a suit to work, but I find it pretty damn insulting that you would suggest that just because somebody does means that person would go off and loot!
Oh, I am pretty sure, that if you want to do a max damage assessment the rioters have probably caused less damage than the recent partial failures and collapses of the financial system on the backs of the common classes. It's just that thugs in hoodies look scarier than the people serving warrants for repossession of your property when your pension is lost by the fund managers or (well you get the picture...)

BTW, as to your first questions, I know more than a few people who should have been able to get a proper mortgage and were forced into sub-prime categories instead because the institutions would make more money from them in fees and interest payments. Most of the "newer" defaulters are failing because they are stuck in high interest rate situations with punitive fees and fines that should never have occurred in the first place. Whose fault is this? The people who knew better and did it anyway cause there was more money in it for them in the short term or the people who trusted the "professionals and notaries, et al." and ended up being screwed for their lack of knowledge of a system that they aren't qualified to understand. Hell, even the regulators didn't really understand what was happening until it was way past too late.
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