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  #81  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:23
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Well, you seem to be in possession of quite a lot of the facts of the shooting incident, so it seems odd that you would confuse a minicab with a black cab.

You're not suggesting that you weren't actually there, are you?
What difference does it make ? I read the report, and transcribed cab/mini cab as Black Cab, for all my time in London, they are synonymous.
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  #82  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:23
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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"Black Cab" is quite a generic broad term for Taxi in London. How many times have you asked for a Black Cab, or said you were going to get a Black Cab, only for it to be Silver or Maroon. ??? What does it matter what colour the cab was ?

Would it weaken the argument if I replaced "Black Cab" with "Cab", if so , why ? It makes no difference.
Of course it does. Your line of thought is "black cab, black sock at night" so it is quite obvious the officers could neither have positively established what they were shooting nor the actual threat level (you know, all those dark colors at night)at and simply executed the person to be done with it. Correct me if that's not what you were trying to say.

It transpires it was a light colored cab, in full daylight. So chances are the rest of your inferences (as opposed to "testimonials" as you initially put it) can be wrong as well.
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  #83  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:25
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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What difference does it make ?
Well, you can hardly assert that the police didn't warn Mr Duggan, or that the shooting was an 'execution' when you weren't actually there, and know as little about the circumstances as the rest of us.

The fact that you confused a silver Toyota Estima people carrier minicab for a black cab suggests that your speculation is as ill-informed as anyone else's.
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  #84  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:25
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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If he was being restrained, then they deliberately shot him in the arm? or they are that bad a shot from close range? The cop shot twice as he is trained to do, the guy was moving, who knows in which direction or more likely as we was holding up his weapon, therefore two shots arm and chest.Makes a lot more sense.
Well, a couple of posts back you said you had no explanation for the bullet found in the cops radio ... now you do.

I find it strange that a bullet that passes through someone's arm ends up in the chest of a police officer. Was Duggans arm being held across the chest of a police officer at the time he was shot in the chest?

Certainly seems to be enough evidence to warrant further investigation and of course as more facts are uncovered, we move further than futther away from the original PR line of "there was a firefight with police officers in which Duggan was shot and killed".

This is not the first case where officers of the Met have been involved in killing someone and we get what looks like deliberately misleading reports released shortly afterward in an attempt to create a false impression of what happened.
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  #85  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:27
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Well, a couple of posts back you said you had no explanation for the bullet found in the cops radio ... now you do.

I find it strange that a bullet that passes through someone's arm ends up in the chest of a police officer. Was Duggans arm being held across the chest of a police officer at the time he was shot in the chest?

Certainly seems to be enough evidence to warrant further investigation and of course as more facts are uncovered, we move further than futther away from the original PR line of "there was a firefight with police officers in which Duggan was shot and killed".

This is not the first case where officers of the Met have been involved in killing someone and we get what looks like deliberately misleading reports released shortly afterward in an attempt to create a false impression of what happened.
???? there is further investigation going on, the IPC are doing it ????
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  #86  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:27
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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So he is still alive ?
What word would you use, if not execution ?

He was not brandishing the firearm, there is no account to say the Police gave him any warning ("Hands up" , "Drop your weapon" , "Get down" etc). IMHO, the Police were not justified in discharging their weapons. IMHO, they deliberately set out to take this mans life.
The Metropolitan Police, for the most part, are young blokes with wives and families.
Some parts of inner London, after dark, can be very threatening and, even though the police are trained to deal with voilence, having a gun waved at you, without knowing whether or not it's going to be fired, can't be an enjoyable experience.
The bloke waving the gun could so easily have fired it. He wouldn't announce it first. What then?
I'm not an admirer of the police, but I have recently been in Tottenham after dark when trouble has broken out outside a bar, and it was pretty alarming.
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  #87  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:27
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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.

This is not the first case where officers of the Met have been involved in killing someone and we get what looks like deliberately misleading reports released shortly afterward in an attempt to create a false impression of what happened.
Deja-Vu with the Met.

There is a link back in this thread that describes exactly that. The Police version is often always wrong in the beginning.
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  #88  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:29
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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How did a shot which hit Duggans arm end up in the chest radio of a police officer? I'd have to say there is some evidence here that Duggan might have been restrained at the time he was shot in the chest and this needs to be investigated further.
If a jacketed round traverses someone's arm and impacts a person right behind, you can be sure it'll do a lot more damage than simply embed and stop in a plastic radio thing. A bicep will not do much in terms of reducing bullet velocity. Especially at point blank range.

Bot don't let physics detract from an interesting discussion.
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  #89  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:29
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The Metropolitan Police, for the most part, are young blokes with wives and families.
Some parts of inner London, after dark, can be very threatening and, even though the police are trained to deal with voilence, having a gun waved at you, without knowing whether or not it's going to be fired, can't be an enjoyable experience.
The bloke waving the gun could so easily have fired it. He wouldn't announce it first. What then?
I'm not an admirer of the police, but I have recently been in Tottenham after dark when trouble has broken out outside a bar, and it was pretty alarming.
He wasn't waving a gun. No reports indicate he was even going for his gun.
It was later found in his sock, allegedly. Had he have been waving a gun, I would be taking a different line. The Police would have been fully justified in using lethal force.
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  #90  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:30
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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What difference does it make ? I read the report, and transcribed cab/mini cab as Black Cab, for all my time in London, they are synonymous.
They are as synonymous as a bus and a lorry. Stop lying. You were wrong, deal with it.
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  #91  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:31
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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???? there is further investigation going on, the IPC are doing it ????
I never said that there wasn't further investigation going on - I was commenting in the context that we need this further investigation to get to the truth of what happened as quite obviously the leaks which were made by Met sources to the press were a load of disingenuous rubbish.


As for the IPCC, they didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with their handling of the killing of Ian Tomlinson by a Met officer. I'd prefer to see a proper independent inquiry.
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  #92  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:31
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Had he have been waving a gun, I would be taking a different line.
... unless he was a barrister waving a gun out of a window, of course.
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  #93  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:31
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Whatever this man was, no Society should have the Law enforcers running around sentencing people. As I said before, if they had enough evidence to warrant sending out an armed response unit, they should have raided his home early a.m. and arrested him, and not have deployed summary justice on the streets in a planned execution.
UTH - how do you know what happened ? Where you there ?

Personally I haven't got a clue - but before you decide that the Met is sending out Death Squads to terminate good upstanding citizens, then maybe we need to wait a little while. Or do have any evidence ?
I doubt they planned an execution - there is no motive. As you have said, they could have just nicked him for possession of a firearm ( which 2 years , I believe) It seems that he was a petty crim, linked to gangs. TBH , the Met would have been happy enough that sooner or later , he would have been taken out by someone ....
They really would have wanted the enquiry and the backlash ...

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So, to return to my earlier point, which seems to be blithely ignored by press and forum alike: if these young British thugs are so angry with the Metropolitan police, why are they making all the effort to go to Somali, Bangladeshi and Kurdish districts to go a-looting, instead of hopping on the tube and nipping down to New Scotland Yard or Westminster to make their feelings known?

Could it be, perhaps, that this isn't actually a protest at all, but rather a free-for-all crime spree with sinister racial overtones?
Exactly - if you are deprived , poor and hungry you protest against society, not go shopping and nicking....
During the Sharpsville Massacre , I can't remember any hi-fis and sports shops being turned over ....
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Old 10.08.2011, 12:32
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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He wasn't waving a gun. No reports indicate he was even going for his gun.
It was later found in his sock, allegedly. Had he have been waving a gun, I would be taking a different line. The Police would have been fully justified in using lethal force.
I stand corrected. I'd heard he was waving it around.
I'm obviously corrupted by the Murdoch press
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Old 10.08.2011, 12:33
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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If a jacketed round traverses someone's arm and impacts a person right behind, you can be sure it'll do a lot more damage than simply embed and stop in a plastic radio thing. A bicep will not do much in terms of reducing bullet velocity. Especially at point blank range.

Bot don't let physics detract from an interesting discussion.
It could have been an SJHP, designed to lose kinetic energy through destruction on impact. Fully jacketed rounds (FMJ) are not used by the Police forces because they do not stop at the victim and carry a large risk of harming others.
Any shot through the arm, was most likely through the bone, all these factors suggest a scenario that Gav has described.
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Old 10.08.2011, 12:33
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

hang on, what kind of socks was this guy wearing?? guns are pretty big and heavy, how the hell did he get it to fit (and stay) in his sock???
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  #97  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:34
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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I never said that there wasn't further investigation going on - I was commenting in the context that we need this further investigation to get to the truth of what happened as quite obviously the leaks which were made by Met sources to the press were a load of disingenuous rubbish.


As for the IPCC, they didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with their handling of the killing of Ian Tomlinson by a Met officer. I'd prefer to see a proper independent inquiry.
Which will cost a couple of million quid to find out the oik got what was coming anyway.
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Old 10.08.2011, 12:34
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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If a jacketed round traverses someone's arm and impacts a person right behind, you can be sure it'll do a lot more damage than simply embed and stop in a plastic radio thing. A bicep will not do much in terms of reducing bullet velocity. Especially at point blank range.

Bot don't let physics detract from an interesting discussion.
OK - feel free to suggest an alternative scenario here from your obvious superior knowledge of the physics of firearms.
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Old 10.08.2011, 12:36
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Which will cost a couple of million quid to find out the oik got what was coming anyway.
Yep - that about sums up your 'position' here.

You're not the least bit interested in what actually happened but are just of the opinion that it would be acceptible for police to summarily execute the man and lie about it afterwards.


Thank you for saving me the trouble of a long drawn out exchange of posts in the thread before we reached that point, I do appreciate your brevity.
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Old 10.08.2011, 12:38
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Yep - that about sums up your 'position' here.

You're not the least bit interested in what actually happened but are just of the opinion that it would be OK to summarily execute the man and lie about it afterwards.


Thank you for saving me the trouble of a long drawn out exchange of posts in the thread before we reached that point, I do appreciate your brevity.
That is not true and not fair. I never said I condoned the lying about it.
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