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Old 07.08.2011, 10:02
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Mark Duggan shot and killed by London police

SPLIT from this thread: The Tottenham Riots....
We encourage those interested in discussing the circumstances of Mark Duggan's death to do so on this thread, leaving the original thread free for discussion of the ongoing UK riots. Thanks! -the mods

Mark Duggan was a s so called "gansta" wasn't he ?

In reading the reports yesterday , his mum said it was a tragedy that he didn't reach his 30 birthday ....
Perhaps the knob shouldn't have pulled a gun on a policeman and shot him. The bullet was stopped by the radio.
The police marksman then retaliated ... wow , there is a surprise !

(allegedly)

The police have asked the family to understanding and take into account what lead to his shooting

It's the mid 80's all over again - perhaps as some stage the inner city populations have to start taking responsibility for the abject parenting and hopeless morals that lead to this. It's no different from the LA riots, the Paris riots of a few years back - it's damning for society that the is disaffected youth, however there has always been disaffected youth.

If the ganstsas want to pimp, extort, push drugs , then "those who live by the sword, will die by the sword"

TBH - they should quite whining and put their efforts into making the community a better place

The gansta culture has more is a media issues - not a british one. There are a lot of wannabees here in ZH. They just haven't developed the Jafricain Patios" yet ....

Last edited by MathNut; 10.08.2011 at 14:05. Reason: edited to clarify thread split
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Old 07.08.2011, 10:19
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Mark Duggan was a s so called "gansta" wasn't he ?

In reading the reports yesterday , his mum said it was a tragedy that he didn't reach his 30 birthday ....
Perhaps the knob shouldn't have pulled a gun on a policeman and shot him. The bullet was stopped by the radio.
The police marksman then retaliated ... wow , there is a surprise !

(allegedly)
(my emphasis) Well Jean-Charles de Menezes was a terrorist running away from the police, so was basically asking for it, wasn't he? And Harry Stanley walked the streets with a gun cleverly disguised as a table leg, plus the 999 call mentioned he was "an Irishman", so they took him out from behind just in time. Oh, wait... (not to mention that barrister in Chelsea)

This is not to say that this time, there wasn't a firefight or that this time, the guy they shot dead wasn't a dangerous and armed criminal. It's just that the Met has an unfortunate history of cocking up firearm incidents by first crying wolf and then elaborately lying to hide the facts. What goes around comes around.
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Old 07.08.2011, 10:47
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

What I have read is that non police issue weapon was recovered and there was a non police issue round losged in a police radio.

Sky News quoted a family friend as saying "he was into stuff but not violent".
The looting and the damage seem a rather apt epitaph really. It is just said we seem to be going nowhere fast.
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Old 07.08.2011, 11:08
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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(my emphasis) Well Jean-Charles de Menezes was a terrorist running away from the police, so was basically asking for it, wasn't he? And Harry Stanley walked the streets with a gun cleverly disguised as a table leg, plus the 999 call mentioned he was "an Irishman", so they took him out from behind just in time. Oh, wait... (not to mention that barrister in Chelsea)

This is not to say that this time, there wasn't a firefight or that this time, the guy they shot dead wasn't a dangerous and armed criminal. It's just that the Met has an unfortunate history of cocking up firearm incidents by first crying wolf and then elaborately lying to hide the facts. What goes around comes around.
Your extrapolation not mine , buster ...
In the JCM case - it was a complete Cluster**** - the outcome was a white wash TBH. Do you know why it was ? I used to live v close to a Met Officer who was involved (not in the action but the clear up) - the people who shot JCM were not actually Met Officers but in the government employ sorting out "homeland security" ... the Met took it for the "team"

With the Guilford 4 and the Birmingham 7, the police have shown what length they would go to to get a conviction.

The Met don't don't have a great reputation - but I wholly disagree with your " what goes around comes around statement" - you are suggesting that, as they have a dogy past, it's ok to try to kill officers?

I'm not sure I want to live in your "fair" society.
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Old 07.08.2011, 11:18
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The Met don't don't have a great reputation - but I wholly disagree with your " what goes around comes around statement" - you are suggesting that, as they have a dogy past, it's ok to try to kill officers?

I'm not sure I want to live in your "fair" society.
Ah, rubbish, that's not what I said. I think trying to kill a police officer is not right, and anyone who's running aroung being a big badass gangsta, armed to boot, has had it indeed coming.

What I am suggesting that when the Met puts forward an explanation as to why a member of the public was killed while interacting (to use the widest possible term) with the police, there are lingering doubts as to whether they are, again, being economical with the truth (to add to the other cases: Ian Tomlinson anyone?). Cue riots.
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Old 07.08.2011, 11:29
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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In the JCM case - it was a complete Cluster**** - the outcome was a white wash TBH. Do you know why it was ? I used to live v close to a Met Officer who was involved (not in the action but the clear up) - the people who shot JCM were not actually Met Officers but in the government employ sorting out "homeland security" ... the Met took it for the "team"
So basically you are saying that the officers known only as "Ivor" AKA "Hotel3", "C12", and all the others describing the events at the coroner's inquest perjured themselves? Thank you for making my argument.
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Old 07.08.2011, 11:40
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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So basically you are saying that the officers known only as "Ivor" AKA "Hotel3", "C12", and all the others describing the events at the coroner's inquest perjured themselves? Thank you for making my argument.
I'm saying anecdotally that they probably weren't Met officers ... so no they probably didn't ... but it's hearsay , so the normal provisos apply.

I'm sure the police love interacting with the community that protected those who hacked PC Blakelock to death with machetes

What has Ian Tomlinson got to do with this ? I believe the officer has now been charged ?

Unfortunately, Thatcher used the police as a political force in the miners strike, and with NI/Wapping ... that has continued under Blair and Brown. Ian Tomlinson was indeed a huge over-reaction to a situation. The guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time - and the police are responsible.

If you want carry on "police bashing" then feel free ... but TBH , I'm not that interested. It seems to be your "beef" not mine
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Old 07.08.2011, 11:45
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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So basically you are saying that the officers known only as "Ivor" AKA "Hotel3", "C12", and all the others describing the events at the coroner's inquest perjured themselves? Thank you for making my argument.

Aren't you being a wee bit naive? Do you really believe that there aren't such cases of people employed by departments of government that don't appear in the yellow pages or carry any name plate doing dirty deeds for the greater good? And if there indeed such people, in the interests of security it might be better for someone else to take the rap for it? Or would you rather go after the Old Bill for possible perjury rather than have additional security people that operate in the shadows?

In this particular incident in Tottenham it seems that the chap that was shot was a knob - firing at the coppers isn't really a sound solution, plus you seem to have overlooked that the unit that went to arrest this guy knew exactly who he was, it was a part of Operation Trident which specifically handles gun crime in black communities. The scenes or rioting and looting are quite frankly disgraceful behaviour by f***wits taking advantage of this situation. Amazing how such things get inflamed out of all proportion. One bad'un gets taken out by the rozzers and the whole district has a riot to protest? Bollocks.
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Old 08.08.2011, 00:28
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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What I have read is that non police issue weapon was recovered and there was a non police issue round losged in a police radio.
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In this particular incident in Tottenham it seems that the chap that was shot was a knob - firing at the coppers isn't really a sound solution
Not condoning the violence and the looting in any way, and by all accounts the guy shot by the police was a bit of a knob, but as it turns out, he didn't shoot, and the bullet lodged in the very lucky police officer's radio was police issue. In fact, two shots were fired, one of which killed the intended target, while the other one very nearly killed a police officer.
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Old 08.08.2011, 08:33
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Not condoning the violence and the looting in any way, and by all accounts the guy shot by the police was a bit of a knob, but as it turns out, he didn't shoot, and the bullet lodged in the very lucky police officer's radio was police issue. In fact, two shots were fired, one of which killed the intended target, while the other one very nearly killed a police officer.

and where did you find this bit of info? all the accounts I have seen so far have said it wasn't a police bullet in the radio, I'd be amazed if a police bullet fired from a police gun, couldn't make it through a radio tbh.
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Old 08.08.2011, 08:39
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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In this particular incident in Tottenham it seems that the chap that was shot was a knob - firing at the coppers isn't really a sound solution, plus you seem to have overlooked that the unit that went to arrest this guy knew exactly who he was, it was a part of Operation Trident which specifically handles gun crime in black communities. The scenes or rioting and looting are quite frankly disgraceful behaviour by f***wits taking advantage of this situation. Amazing how such things get inflamed out of all proportion. One bad'un gets taken out by the rozzers and the whole district has a riot to protest? Bollocks.

a quick google will tell you all you need to know about the guy, allegedly he was a gang member, on his way to shoot the 3 people out on bail for stabbing his cousin (in full view of a crowd). Just a shame the coppers didn't wait until he'd shot them before taking him out.
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Old 08.08.2011, 08:55
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

ok found the story about the bullet

"However, initial forensic tests suggest the bullet is a hollow–point round as used by the Metropolitan Police."

so they are not saying its a police bullet, just its the same hollow-point type the police use. so again, for now just rumor, the kind of rumor that fuels the fire of the rioters.

the police will know how many bullets they had issued, and how many came back.

I'd still be astounded if a police bullet can't penetrate a radio, thats far more worrying then a scum bag being shot.
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Old 08.08.2011, 09:05
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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and where did you find this bit of info? all the accounts I have seen so far have said it wasn't a police bullet in the radio, I'd be amazed if a police bullet fired from a police gun, couldn't make it through a radio tbh.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/u...cle3117986.ece
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Preliminary ballistics tests are understood to show that a police officer fired two bullets during the operation to arrest Mr Duggan last week. One killed him and the other lodged itself in the radio of another policeman, who was lucky to escape injury.
Police ammunition is designed to stop people with minimal risk to bystanders, not to pierce objects (in the Jean-Charles de Menezes shooting, the police used hollow point bullets, not full metal jacked military issue - the latter would go right through the "soft target" and could cause serious injury to those standing behind it).
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Old 08.08.2011, 12:07
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Police ammunition is designed to stop people with minimal risk to bystanders, not to pierce objects (in the Jean-Charles de Menezes shooting, the police used hollow point bullets, not full metal jacked military issue - the latter would go right through the "soft target" and could cause serious injury to those standing behind it).
... ...

Is that why they shot him when he was pinned to the ground...
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Old 08.08.2011, 14:16
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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and where did you find this bit of info? all the accounts I have seen so far have said it wasn't a police bullet in the radio, I'd be amazed if a police bullet fired from a police gun, couldn't make it through a radio tbh.
.

If they are a special, armed force, they must be wearing bullet-proof vests, so maybe the combination. It makes a good headline though- a bit like the Sheriff's badge stopping a bullet. Not that I am criticizing the police- It isn't an easy job, I have a lot of respect for what they do.

Paul Mckeever, Chairman of the Police Federation predicted this last year and was criticized by Theresa May

http://www.polfed.org/Paul_McKeever_...peech_2011.pdf

then this from McKeever in the HuffPost

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This morning he told HuffPost UK:

“Our thoughts are with the officers that have been injured. It seems as though we’re in a position in the police service today where we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

“We’re criticised this morning for being too light-touch initially with the demonstration that was taking place in Tottenham, and yet I’m sure if we’d been less sensitive at the beginning, we’d have been criticised for that if things had gone wrong similarly.”

The riots echoed violence in the area in 1985 when a policeman was murdered during riots in Broadwater Farm, and another officer shot after a woman died during a police raid.

Police historian and former chief constable Tim Brain told Huff Post UK that there needed to be an inquiry: “If you look at the riots of the 1980s, there were general social disadvantaged communities, high unemployment, which acted as a general background to the disorder to the 1980s.

“But then there were the flash points which caused riots. It’s very hard to draw a strict delineation between the social disadvantages and the trigger points.

“In the 1980s Mrs. Thatcher played down the social disadvantages and played up the trigger points. There are some potential similarities between what we’re seeing now and what we’re seeing in the 1980s.”
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Old 08.08.2011, 14:48
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

He had a gun in the car, regardless of if he planned to use it, live by the sword, die by the sword.
Firearms officers have not helped by making claims about him shooting first, which have yet to be substantiated.
The looting and rioting was basically violence and robbery for the sake of it, with a nice excuse to fall back on afterwards, if they had attacked police directly it would have made more sense but looting shops and burning homes /shops which were completely unattached to the incident is mindless.
His family can say what they want, he was a gang member, with an illegal firearm...
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Old 08.08.2011, 16:35
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

The poor guy never even fired a shot, based on recent reports. He was probably only carrying the shooter to wave at the police to warn them off. This was cold-blooded murder and an understandable show of frustration by those who knew him. Plus a bit of redistribution of wealth which doesn't do any harm especially when it come out of the insurance. If you lived round there you could probably pick up an iPod or an iPhone at an affordable price in some of the local boozers in the next few days.

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Old 08.08.2011, 16:39
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The poor guy never even fired a shot, based on recent reports. He was probably only carrying the shooter to wave at the police to warn them off. This was cold-blooded murder and an understandable show of frustration by those who knew him. Plus a bit of redistribution of wealth which doesn't do any harm especially when it come out of the insurance. If you lived round there you could probably pick up an iPod or an iPhone at an affordable price in some of the local boozers in the next few days.

<zip!>
So that's what an 'understandable show of frustration' looks like these days.
Let's not make them a little bit annoyed then!
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Old 08.08.2011, 16:48
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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The poor guy never even fired a shot, based on recent reports. He was probably only carrying the shooter to wave at the police to warn them off. This was cold-blooded murder and an understandable show of frustration by those who knew him. Plus a bit of redistribution of wealth which doesn't do any harm especially when it come out of the insurance. If you lived round there you could probably pick up an iPod or an iPhone at an affordable price in some of the local boozers in the next few days.

<zip!>
Waving guns at police to "warn them off" is pretty sure to get an armed response. Not sure of the details, but as an excuse, it's a pretty poor one. If he's waving guns at the police, what does he expect them to do?
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Old 08.08.2011, 16:49
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Re: The Tottenham Riots....

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Waving guns at police to "warn them off" is pretty sure to get an armed response. Not sure of the details, but as an excuse, it's a pretty poor one. If he's waving guns at the police, what does he expect them to do?
pssst... irony.
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