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  #41  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:19
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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One of mine ? Oh , you think I condone murder/attempted murder because I choose to reject a knee-jerk solution and offer alternatives ? Nice...
Certainly not, just the headline popped up on sky.
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  #42  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:21
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Some form of community activity is probably a better answer. It needs to be planned carefully. It should be additional work, not replacing existing jobs to save Councils money. This could put more people on the dole. Also, if convicted people are doing the same jobs as employed people it could be seen as demoralising for the employed ones.
Given local government cutbacks, there should be plenty of local work for them. It's not a hard solution to implement, it just lacks political will. We all have self respect for ourselves and our peers because we are educated and hard working. At a push, this should be enforced upon the criminal elements of these riots.
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  #43  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:23
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

I want to see the rioters in fluorescent overalls, chained to each other, cleaning up after themselves. Sweeping glass, picking up litter, painting walls. A chain gang. That'll teach em. oh, and when they're done, send em to jail.
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  #44  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:26
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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The UK society is rotten. Parliament needs to discuss how they can improve it.
h aha yes give your life back to our "leaders". The one who are happily pocketing your taxes and uses repression when they realize the citizen are fed up.

Le'ts pay more taxes to support this very good society, where everyone is happy.


Anyway, as you said we have identified one of the many issues of that rotten society:
-Abuses of benefits
-workers (tax payers) fed up of the poor usage of taxes
-workers fed up with seeing the benefit people receiving but not giving much to the society
-criminals unpunished
-In general, legal system rotten and not functioning (police forces tied, trials taking years, offenses for annoying but minor crimes/offenses are not preventing, etc...).
-Policitians pocketing expenses
-Politicians, leaders, making rules to protect their own interests or their rich friends
-No support for unemployed
-Job centers: the "official ghost town", there but not really there. Only here to show people "government is doing something" but they actually don't.

Etc...


Those need a real approach from the thinking citizen not from the money-fed parliament people who don't give a damn. it's a job and source of money for them, it's our life and reality for others!
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  #45  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:28
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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I want to see the rioters in fluorescent overalls, chained to each other, cleaning up after themselves. Sweeping glass, picking up litter, painting walls. A chain gang. That'll teach em. oh, and when they're done, send em to jail.
jails are already full!
And the legal system won't be able to prosecute/charge them for months/years.

And the legal system is feed by your taxes. (ie you pay even more in the end).

So i'm affraid it's not a solution.
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  #46  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:29
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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I want to see the rioters in fluorescent overalls, chained to each other, cleaning up after themselves. Sweeping glass, picking up litter, painting walls. A chain gang. That'll teach em. oh, and when they're done, send em to jail.
Embarrassment is a powerful tool. Apart from the Jail bit, I agree , as I posted earlier. Why waste money jailing them. It won't solve anything. We want to gain from this, which means putting them to good use, not just incurring more expense. Arbeit macht frei.
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  #47  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:31
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Given local government cutbacks, there should be plenty of local work for them. It's not a hard solution to implement, it just lacks political will. We all have self respect for ourselves and our peers because we are educated and hard working. At a push, this should be enforced upon the criminal elements of these riots.
Sadly, the British system would not make this a simple option. Issues include:


  • The individuals require supervision.
  • They will require Health & Safety induction and possibly some training.
  • Materials and tools need to be provided.
  • Attendance/non-attendance has to be monitored.
  • Procedures for dealing with non-attendance and other discipline issues need to be addressed.
  • The potential work has to be risk assessed etc.
  • The completed work needs inspecting & approving.
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  #48  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:33
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Sadly, the British system would not make this a simple option. Issues include:

  • The individuals require supervision.
  • They will require Health & Safety induction and possibly some training. Materials and tools need to be provided.
  • Their attendance/non-attendance has to be monitored.
  • Procedures for dealing with non-attendance and other discipline issues need to be addressed.
  • The potential work has to be risk assessed etc.
  • The completed work needs inspecting & approving.


All easily achievable. (When you consider the alternatives such as Prison etc)

...it will even create jobs for the supervisors and admin. I think the cost and effort would be far less, get the insurers to contribute, they might save money.
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  #49  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:34
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Some form of community activity is probably a better answer. It needs to be planned carefully. It should be additional work, not replacing existing jobs to save Councils money. This could put more people on the dole. Also, if convicted people are doing the same jobs as employed people it could be seen as demoralising for the employed ones.
Yes additional work.

In my "stupid system" the group "Work", will reward "experience" to any people doing that activity:
working: yes by just doing your normal work, you would get "social experience points".
Every job the same amount of points: all jobs are worthy to the society (cleaner, farmer, wanke...erm banker, etc...).

This system is not intended to replace jobs or demoralizing the employed ones.
It's a practical solution to change our rotten society by using the citizen and rewarding them, as opposed to the "one way current system":
Citizen --> lot of taxes --> government pocketing parts of it and poorly spending the rest --> society not working --> people unhappy but still being taxes more and more.


Council will naturally have less tasks or less "spending sources" because voluntary people will do some of the work in exchange of social experience points leading to less taxes contributions and feeling of social worthiness.

Less animosity towards those on benefits because their actions are recognized and financially rewarded.
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  #50  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:34
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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jails are already full!
And the legal system won't be able to prosecute/charge them for months/years.

And the legal system is feed by your taxes. (ie you pay even more in the end).

So i'm affraid it's not a solution.
Yes... YOUR jails are full. My bonded warehouse in Clapham is empty and cheap and filled with blocks of granite that need breaking. And for UtH's beloved embarrassment factor, it'll be televised 24/7 on it's own channel, with phone in voting on who gets to eat that day. Welcome to the new world.
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  #51  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:38
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Sadly, the British system would not make this a simple option. Issues include:


  • The individuals require supervision.
  • They will require Health & Safety induction and possibly some training.
  • Materials and tools need to be provided.
  • Attendance/non-attendance has to be monitored.
  • Procedures for dealing with non-attendance and other discipline issues need to be addressed.
  • The potential work has to be risk assessed etc.
  • The completed work needs inspecting & approving.
You're still talking about sanctions/repressions to the rioters!
They're the result of a rotten system (not to excuse them).
Let's focus solutions to help the worthy citizen instead of finding how to punish the crappy ones!

Let's reward the good citizens first!

I'm tired of seeing repression everywhere!
Especially from governments (any political parties) who nicely pocket your money and "send the police" when there's social oppositions (or riots, whatever events)

Those politicians are a failure! for decades they are in power and they can't make our society better! But rest assure, they are having a nice rich life!
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  #52  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:40
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Let's focus solutions to help the worthy citizen instead of finding how to punish the crappy ones!
No, let's focus on making crappy citizens worthy ones.
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  #53  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:48
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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No, let's focus on making crappy citizens worthy ones.
Yes, that's also included in the system I suggested:
Those who want can do something and get rewarded both financially and socially.

Those who don't want keep neutral, but have less impact on the tax payments of those who contributes socially more: because taxes would be reduce, the tax payer "feed less" the abusers.

Because they'll be more education activities such as "free lesson", in a medium period of time (after the crappy citizen will pass their rebellion period), they'll see the "rewards" and could volunteer to those activity. Of course attending sessions will also lead to "social experience rewards points".

The social impact will be significant for everyone: more cleanliness, more engagement from citizen, more social interactions, ...

And because the current system would still be there as the "standard neutral solution", those crappy one would still get their benefits. At first, but then they would benefit from the "new system" and have more opportunities to become better citizen/persons. But in any case they would have less negative consequences for good citizen
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  #54  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:48
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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You're still talking about sanctions/repressions to the rioters!
You're only talking about the rewards and not the punishment for property crimes.
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Old 11.08.2011, 16:49
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Those politicians are a failure! for decades they are in power and they can't make our society better! But rest assure, they are having a nice rich life!
They're basically enjoying their job benefits, bonuses, working out hard to cover up corrupt bankers, accommodating corporate needs as possible and planning where to invade next to gain more natural resources and contracts for their local corporates for their military deployments....sad but true
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  #56  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:51
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

Conflicting reports on court sentencing, but Westminster seems to be taking a very hard line. Most will face jail. Surprising to me are the vocations these people lead...

"A 17-year-old aspiring dancer who handed herself in after seeing her picture in a newspaper was among the defendants at a busy, yet efficient, Westminster Magistrates' Court.

An estate agent and students studying accountancy, journalism and engineering faced the district judge on charges arising from the riots.

The fate of an 18-year-old man who bought sports clothes which had been stolen from JD Sports in Clapham illustrated how seriously these offenders were being treated.

Ordinarily punished by a fine or community service, he was remanded in custody to face the heavier prison sentences of the crown court.

"Given the seriousness of the circumstances" was the repeated refrain of the judge as she refused bail and sent each defendent to the crown court.

She said her power, to send people to jail for six months, was not enough."
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  #57  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:53
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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You're still talking about sanctions/repressions to the rioters!
They're the result of a rotten system (not to excuse them).
Let's focus solutions to help the worthy citizen instead of finding how to punish the crappy ones!

Let's reward the good citizens first!

I'm tired of seeing repression everywhere!
Especially from governments (any political parties) who nicely pocket your money and "send the police" when there's social oppositions (or riots, whatever events)

Those politicians are a failure! for decades they are in power and they can't make our society better! But rest assure, they are having a nice rich life!
You are right. Punishing offenders on its own isn't going to solve the problems. There will just be another batch along before long.

There are endless issues. Government can address some of the issues but there are even wider problems including:

Loss of manufacturing industry
Cheap imported goods
Media influence
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Old 11.08.2011, 16:53
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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You're only talking about the rewards and not the punishment for property crimes.
There's legal system for that.

It's over crowded but if "councils" and governments would have to deal less with ramping crimes due to the rotten society, they would be able to have less criminals and would deal with the crimes better.

As for the system I suggest it will indeed implies deep reform and kick the "political correctness" out of the society if it does not go against the law.
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Old 11.08.2011, 17:00
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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So evict them and then what ??? The System still has to provide them / has a duty to provide them with accommodation.
Obviously you can't let people starve.
Maybe the petition is thinking about not giving them money but providing them acomodation and food and so be sure none of it is being diverted into drugs or criminal activity, and maybe some system with bonus points based on good behaviour and community service with which they can rehalibitate themselves.
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Old 11.08.2011, 17:17
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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There's legal system for that.

It's over crowded but if "councils" and governments would have to deal less with ramping crimes due to the rotten society, they would be able to have less criminals and would deal with the crimes better.

As for the system I suggest it will indeed implies deep reform and kick the "political correctness" out of the society if it does not go against the law.
Meanwhile, what punishment do you give the people who've committed today? Certainly you aren't advocating giving them a free pass and a 'Well, you're just a victim of society' speech?
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