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  #61  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:17
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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You can't get any poorer than already having no money. Cutting benefits means they would have to steal/rob just to be fed and clothed properly. Having no money leads to boredom, boredom leads to mischievousness and onto crime, drugs and hey presto, rioting and looting for fun.
you could be working 40 hours a week for less than your colleague next door is picking up in benefits. I would determine that as pretty poor. And as I have said earlier I am not in favour of cutting benefits to reduce their income so that these people starve. However there should be some level of deterrent not to go rioting and I don't believe giving more money for the welfare state will work. It works on paper (more money = people become nicer = less anger = no crime) but in reality it does not work.
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  #62  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:22
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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you could be working 40 hours a week for less than your colleague next door is picking up in benefits. I would determine that as pretty poor. And as I have said earlier I am not in favour of cutting benefits to reduce their income so that these people starve. However there should be some level of deterrent not to go rioting and I don't believe giving more money for the welfare state will work. It works on paper (more money = people become nicer = less anger = no crime) but in reality it does not work.
Simply not true, even on minimum wage. Tax credits and other benefits kick in for the lower paid and these are well above any income support benefits. Granted it can become near parity if fiddled/abused but successive governments have made getting back to work pay, albeit only slightly.

I am glad we concur on not cutting benefits.
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  #63  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:31
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Simply not true, even on minimum wage. Tax credits and other benefits kick in for the lower paid and these are well above any income support benefits. Granted it can become near parity if fiddled/abused but successive governments have made getting back to work pay, albeit only slightly.

I am glad we concur on not cutting benefits.
it can become near parity in a number of situations depending on number of dependants, accomodation cost or a whole host of factors, but we are heading into a different discussion.

I fully agree tax credits apply a difference but they are hopelessly complicated to understand - it's the thing everyone says about them. And if educated people have a problem understanding them what chance people who are not so academically able ?
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  #64  
Old 11.08.2011, 16:33
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Meanwhile, what punishment do you give the people who've committed today? Certainly you aren't advocating giving them a free pass and a 'Well, you're just a victim of society' speech?
Well what do you suggest? because i'm not a paid politician or "leader" to reply to all the society's current problems.
I don't have a prosecutor or a "parliament staff" salary.

My suggestions are not covering/addressing all possible issues, but bringing a base for reflection for bringing a change to the listed issues. Those issues which make citizen perceive the UK society as rotten...


But if I would think on "action" against those who have "comitted" today any offenses...

1) Special immediate legal actions. Putting them in the queue of the busy legal system is silly. In months the criminals would already forget why they are judge for and the sanction would be perceived as unfair, too late.
How? well judge supervising a "fast lane" judgment, with possible reduction of sentences because it's difficult to have a normal trial (no one is guilty prior to be judge as such). Creating a new official team, parallel to the legal system

2) Impact on their benefits or fines to pay (for those not on benefits): something reasonable and short term to mark the occasion as opposed to sink them further.
Possible variation: Pausing their benefit for a month and providing them "feeding center" where they could get food and basic items for free. To show they are punished anyway but provide basic assistance.

3) Actions towards citizen who have their property damaged: payments, special cut in their taxes (because after all police could not defend them, politicians let them in their troubles). Why keeping the normal system going on meanwhile innocent citizen have lost everything? The "politician parasites and their feeding system" must stop for those who have been victim of its failures.

4) Also working towards the alternative social model I suggested.

5) burning all politicians. Well that would be significant saving, no? After all they proved again they are useless and not capable of doing anything real. Oh wait, they sent "Repression" 3 days after the events. Oh well... they are our saviors!
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  #65  
Old 14.08.2011, 02:55
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

We could put them all on an old Greek cruise liner and take them to Australia!
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  #66  
Old 14.08.2011, 04:59
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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We could put them all on an old Greek cruise liner and take them to Australia!
Don't we have enough bad cricketers already ??? How many more bad beers and warped accents are we to put up with ???

Honestly, let's keep crims and bad poets that side of the antipodes.

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  #67  
Old 14.08.2011, 05:13
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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So they wanna stop them from being casual rioters and turn them into forced monster criminals, isn't the government ignorance to educated this people and put them on the right track enough, didn't they learn from any mistakes.....what a wise decision to make

What about reform them, contain them, train them, educate them, give them a job, turn their energy to serve the right cause and society rather than siding them of it.
This is a big problem as the educated lower class children can then take the "good/real" jobs from the children of the upper class.

This is one of the reasons, that no matter how much rhetoric one hears about how education is inadequate, none of the solutions offered actually have any chance of succeeding and in fact are counter productive or destructive to the system at large. I.E. the system that the common folk use, not the Private one available only to the select few.
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  #68  
Old 14.08.2011, 10:50
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Don't we have enough bad cricketers already ??? How many more bad beers and warped accents are we to put up with ???

Honestly, let's keep crims and bad poets that side of the antipodes.
Agreed!!! How about some historically tried solution somewhat nearer in the past, and European shores? Strip them from all of their titles and belongings. Put them in concentration camps. Forced labour every day. "Work will make you free!"
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  #69  
Old 14.08.2011, 11:00
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Hm.
I daresay that there' a great deal more than meets the eye, unfortunately.
The previous generations in a sense "consumed" the future - in terms of resources (be those the environment or p ension entitlements, etc) - and the kids now this very well.
Generally speaking I have the distinct feeling we're now living in a much more frustrating and scary "run or drown" economy, where there is no middle ground. Either you're furiously pedalling at the top or your crushed at the bottom... Add a major crisis and all these dynamics really stand out.

Anyway...

I found this article to be quite enlightening, in this respect:
http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/71...ion-fcked.html

Ciao

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  #70  
Old 14.08.2011, 11:48
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

Okay, how about this as a solution. You need both Carrot and Stick motivation to make people respond. This petition is stick only and will not function.
  • Make social benefits (initialy for the rioters) dependent on turning up for a clean up gang.
  • If you don't turn up, you don't get any of your social benefits, nada.
  • If you don't work, you starve.
  • Make begging illegal to stop these guys turning to that and put the beggars onto the social service work schedule.
  • Make sure that people can further themselves through programmes for further education and advancement in these work places.
  • Anybody caught committing a crime while assigned to one of these programmes is immediatley sent to jail for life or kicked out of the country if they are not a citizen.
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  #71  
Old 14.08.2011, 12:08
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

This petition shows that people signing it seem to have the same opportunist, pack mentality as many of the looters that they are protesting about. The petition now has approaching 200,000 signatures. It has been a knee-jerk reaction to the problem without proper thought. I feel sure that most people who have signed this cannot have thought about what they are signing.

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Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them.
It does, of course, show that these people are unhappy with the situation over the past week. As the petition has past 100,000 signatures, the Government has added an initial reply. This shows that the petition is virtually irrelevant because these powers already exist.

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Prisoners convicted of a criminal offence and detained in prison are not entitled to social security benefits. That means that anyone who is eligible for social security benefits and who is caught, convicted and imprisoned for any offence committed during the recent disorder that has disrupted London and other UK cities will be disqualified from receiving social security payments. The Department for Work and Pensions is also looking at whether further sanctions can be imposed on the benefit entitlements of individuals who receive non custodial sentences. In addition the Department is considering increasing the level of fines which can be deducted from benefit entitlement.

In relation to social housing, it is already a ground for eviction if a tenant or a member of their family is involved in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity in their local neighbourhood. Ministers have encouraged social landlords to use these powers, and a number of local authorities have pledged to do so. The Department for Communities and Local Government is consulting on proposals to allow such evictions to take place where the criminal activity takes place outside the vicinity of the local neighbourhood
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  #72  
Old 14.08.2011, 12:53
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

How about a points system along the lines of that used for motoring offences? Losing points would mean cut benefits, but these could be restored after a period of good behaviour, or earned back by performing compensatory tasks.
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  #73  
Old 19.08.2011, 18:29
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

Seems UK has already powers that the SVP would love!
From todays paper "Foreigners who took part in last week's UK rioting will be deported to "send a tough message to troublemakers," it has emerged."
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Old 19.08.2011, 18:34
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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Seems UK has already powers that the SVP would love!
From todays paper "Foreigners who took part in last week's UK rioting will be deported to "send a tough message to troublemakers," it has emerged."
... despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of rioters were clearly British.
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Old 19.08.2011, 18:59
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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... despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of rioters were clearly British.
quote "More than 150 people born abroad have been arrested over the looting and arson attacks which brought misery to English cities."
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  #76  
Old 19.08.2011, 19:02
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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quote "More than 150 people born abroad have been arrested over the looting and arson attacks which brought misery to English cities."
... out of more than a thousand people arrested.

Concentrating on the small minority of foreigners involved in these riots simply helps to deflect attention from the fact that England is rotten to the core - and the fault for that lies entirely with the English people, not foreigners.
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Old 19.08.2011, 19:05
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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... despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of rioters were clearly British.
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quote "More than 150 people born abroad have been arrested over the looting and arson attacks which brought misery to English cities."
Around 2850 out of 3000 seems like the overwhelming majority to me

Some other statistics from BBC
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  #78  
Old 19.08.2011, 19:14
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

You need to be very careful with this "born in another country" thing. Foreigners are people who do not hold Brittish Citizenship. I was born in South Africa but when I am in Britian I am NOT a foreigner and neither could they send me back to South Africa where I no longer hold citizenship for any reason what so ever.
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  #79  
Old 19.08.2011, 19:29
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

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I propose US style chain gangs (without the chains). Get these idiots cleaning up their community, give them paints and brushes, mops and buckets, litter bags and litter spikes , induce some civic pride, what the heck even pay them a small amount.
Nice very nice! and you volunteer to supervise theme
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Old 06.09.2011, 23:48
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Re: UK E-Petition to Axe rioters' benefits (Stop Social Security payments)

The justice secretary writing in the left wing paper The Guardian, reveals some interesting facts, 75% of those charged and over 18 years of age, had previous convictions. He says the system has failed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/se...s-penal-system

The justice secretary, Kenneth Clarke, has blamed the riots that swept across England last month on a "broken penal system" that has failed to rehabilitate a group of hardcore offenders he describes as the "criminal classes".

Revealing for the first time that almost 75% of those aged over 18 charged with offences committed during the riots had prior convictions, Clarke said the civil unrest had laid bare an urgent need for penal reform to stop reoffending among "a feral underclass, cut off from the mainstream in everything but its materialism".
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