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  #21  
Old 09.09.2011, 10:38
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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So you think the Israeli's will escalate, and sink a warship guarding a peace/aide ship ?
Would not be the first time, actually Israel has learnt a rather good lesson in naval warfare when Egypt blew the INS Eilat (former HMS Zealous) out of the water.
This is the first time a major warship was sunk by a missile armed small boat proving once and for all that big warships are a dinosaur, since then Israel has concentrated on the fast attack boat.
Do I think that the IDF will sink a Turkish warship? Yup!
Thankfully Turkey is not in the EU and under NATO protection, otherwise you could get the scenario where Turkey cries for help and NATO goes to war with Israel. That would be one for the books.
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  #22  
Old 09.09.2011, 10:52
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

Turkey is in NATO (second largest army in NATO after the U.S).

But NATO is a defense pact - sending ships outside Turkey to trade with terrorists is hardly defensive.
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  #23  
Old 09.09.2011, 10:57
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

Now it might comes out as a shock for many of you here,

So you might want to sit down while reading this:

But I wouldn't put my money on the Turks either.
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  #24  
Old 09.09.2011, 11:29
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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But I wouldn't put my money on the Turks either.
I'm sure I'm not the only one intrigued, why ?
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  #25  
Old 09.09.2011, 12:42
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

The UN report made Erdogan look like an idiot which was probably well deserved.
Now he seems determined to prove it. If he sails into Israel territorial waters with warships then he will clearly be in the wrong.

I would guess the Israelis would use land based missiles at that range?
Why risk sending out warships when the other side offers such close & inviting targets?

Quote "Israel has the most highly developed defense industry in the Middle East and the most advanced missile production capability outside of the Soviet Union, United States, France and China. It has exported missile systems and technical advice to several nations"

Israel should up the game & send a humanitarian aid flotilla to the Turkish Kurds
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  #26  
Old 09.09.2011, 12:59
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

Do you really think it would come to such an escalation that Israel will attack the Turkish ships in Mediterranean?

Well before we get there, the big brother to both countries will intervene.
I agree Erdogan's latest remarks/actions make it very difficult for him to backtrack without losing face but he is a good public figure/speaker.. I am sure he and his media force can turn anything around in Turkey
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  #27  
Old 09.09.2011, 13:21
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

The only winners will be arms manufacturers. Everyone else loses.
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  #28  
Old 09.09.2011, 13:48
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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The only winners will be arms manufacturers. Everyone else loses.
It may also end the decades old stalemate in the region, in that case we all win..
..or loose!
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  #29  
Old 09.09.2011, 13:52
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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Do you really think it would come to such an escalation that Israel will attack the Turkish ships in Mediterranean?

Well before we get there, the big brother to both countries will intervene.
I agree Erdogan's latest remarks/actions make it very difficult for him to backtrack without losing face but he is a good public figure/speaker.. I am sure he and his media force can turn anything around in Turkey
I hope not but if he gets close to sending warships into Israeli territorial waters then there is no alternative but to attack the Turkish ships in Mediterranean.

Erdogan got rid of his top military leaders so it is a question of whether the new people are brave enough & strong enough to get him to back down. They must realise that sending threatening warships close to a country that has advanced missile technology can have only one result.
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  #30  
Old 09.09.2011, 13:53
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

Turkey's about due for another military coup caretaker government, isn't it?
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  #31  
Old 09.09.2011, 14:18
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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Turkey's about due for another military coup caretaker government, isn't it?
He did a lot for the country, no one can't contest it without passing for a dumb who knows nothing about the country before and with him.

But it doesn't change the fact that I am certainly not a fan and someone else could fill his shoes pretty nicely too and probably better.
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  #32  
Old 09.09.2011, 14:20
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

If Turkey recognizes the 12 Nautical miles territorial waters off Gaza then the Turkish warships will stay out of it, Israeli ships inside the 12 NM will be able to stop the other ships.

I'm not sure which legal reason will the Turkish navy have to escort blockade breaking ships in any case.
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  #33  
Old 09.09.2011, 14:23
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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If Turkey recognizes the 12 Nautical miles territorial waters off Gaza then the Turkish warships will stay out of it, Israeli ships inside the 12 NM will be able to stop the other ships.

I'm not sure which legal reason will the Turkish navy have to escort blockade breaking ships in any case.
If this is the way it plays out then Erdogan will really look stupid?
Escorting ships without protecting them from boarding by Israel.
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  #34  
Old 09.09.2011, 14:28
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

Erdogan is playing the big shot right now and it will not bring him anywhere.

I feel for the poor boys who are forced to join the military and have to be part of this. I have few cousins-in-law who are there or just came out of it. And some friends who got mentaly screwed up after their military service in the east.

Having people in your army who clearly don't want to be there doesn't make you having a strong army.
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  #35  
Old 09.09.2011, 14:44
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

The Turkish EU minister & Bulgarian foreign met yesterday - The Bulgarian FM did not agree with the Turkish position on Israel.

Turkey's reaction ? "The Bulgarian FM has a Jewish background" (false, but never mind)

AKP's racism will fit well in the Arab league.
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  #36  
Old 09.09.2011, 14:47
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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Erdogan is playing the big shot right now and it will not bring him anywhere.

I feel for the poor boys who are forced to join the military and have to be part of this. I have few cousins-in-law who are there or just came out of it. And some friends who got mentaly screwed up after their military service in the east.

Having people in your army who clearly don't want to be there doesn't make you having a strong army.
Does Erdogan have the right to put his military into such danger without any sort of parliament vote?

As mentioned if his warships stay out of territorial waters then it is an empty gesture, if they do enter territorial waters then it will have terrible consequences.
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  #37  
Old 09.09.2011, 15:01
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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Does Erdogan have the right to put his military into such danger without any sort of parliament vote?

As mentioned if his warships stay out of territorial waters then it is an empty gesture, if they do enter territorial waters then it will have terrible consequences.
What parliament are you talking about? It is just Erdogan governing the whole country. Nobody can oppose him; neither from his party or from the opposition. Media is his, judiciary is his, now military is also his
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  #38  
Old 09.09.2011, 15:17
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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He did a lot for the country, no one can't contest it without passing for a dumb who knows nothing about the country before and with him.

But it doesn't change the fact that I am certainly not a fan and someone else could fill his shoes pretty nicely too and probably better.
I do not agree with you; economically they governed the country well. Erdogan being of municipality background, municipalities and urban infrastructure improved a lot.
Apart from that, I do not see anything positive;
- the foundations of the secular republic are being threatened by him; it s only a matter of time before the country turns into an Islamic republic
- freedom of speech?; try to argue against him openly if you dare. Any government personnel criticising his actions is either being sacked or sent over to smaller cities.
- democracy? only if it serves his purposes. Two secular columnists are sitting in prison for almost two years as part of the famous Sledge case. Nobody has stated what they have been accused of. During the latest elections they were elected to the parliament but they are still kept in prison.
- corruption? as before with only one difference now it s people close to his party who are thriving on corruption, government contracts etc

If you followed local news, you should remember a case against a corrupt islamic charity originally based in Germany. It collected funds from german turks and then committed fraud. They are being sentenced in germany but their turkish branch is still not touched by the turkish judges. Last week two prosecutors who tried to reopen the case were suspended.

I do not like Erdogan or his party. This latest bout with Israel was expected ever since they came to power in 2002. Turkey won't get better unless these guys are unsettled
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  #39  
Old 09.09.2011, 15:28
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

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I do not agree with you; economically they governed the country well. Erdogan being of municipality background, municipalities and urban infrastructure improved a lot.
Apart from that, I do not see anything positive;
- the foundations of the secular republic are being threatened by him; it s only a matter of time before the country turns into an Islamic republic
- freedom of speech?; try to argue against him openly if you dare. Any government personnel criticising his actions is either being sacked or sent over to smaller cities.
- democracy? only if it serves his purposes. Two secular columnists are sitting in prison for almost two years as part of the famous Sledge case. Nobody has stated what they have been accused of. During the latest elections they were elected to the parliament but they are still kept in prison.
- corruption? as before with only one difference now it s people close to his party who are thriving on corruption, government contracts etc

If you followed local news, you should remember a case against a corrupt islamic charity originally based in Germany. It collected funds from german turks and then committed fraud. They are being sentenced in germany but their turkish branch is still not touched by the turkish judges. Last week two prosecutors who tried to reopen the case were suspended.

I do not like Erdogan or his party. This latest bout with Israel was expected ever since they came to power in 2002. Turkey won't get better unless these guys are unsettled
I didn't go anywhere near all of what you are saying.

I said that Erdogan did a lot of good things for the country, I didn't say he did JUST good stuff for the country. I decided to emphased on the good without going into the details of the bad. This was included in a non-saying way into the I am not a fan of him, bla bla bla...

Why I didn't go there? Because it is going off-topic.
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  #40  
Old 09.09.2011, 15:37
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Re: Squaring up in the Med...

Sorry for going off-topic; when it's about Erdogan I do get very critical.
He has done some good, but on other issues he scored pretty bad.

On this Israeli conflict, which he single-handedly created out of thin air, I am curious how they will step back without losing face; they are very creative when it comes to diverting public attention
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