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Old 01.10.2011, 12:20
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Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

Do you get a lot of questions from people (e.g. the Swiss, other expats, or perhaps from your own mind?) about the extra-judicial killings taking place under Nobel prize winning Obama? Bin Laden and more recently Anwar Al Awlaki (a US citizen, never charged nor convicted, protected by the bill or rights that supports freedom of speech is killed for essentially nothing more than hhis speeches by the US government?), etc.

How do you respond? How do you feel about it (gut feel, and also more thoughtfully)?

Good/Evil are subjective - and while I'm pro-American, increasingly it appears to me that an objective outsider could be inclined to qualify the US as a terrorist state?

In reference to Al Awlaki... there's a US politician who made some interesting comments a while back:


Is that grounds for Iran to assassinate him?
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Old 01.10.2011, 12:34
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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recently Anwar Al Awlaki

is killed for essentially nothing more than hhis speeches by the US government?)
I'm confused by what you've said here.

AFAIK (and I admittedly don't know much), Anwar al-Awlaki was known for speaking AGAINST the US government, more specifically, he was implicated for "motivating" (aka "instigating"?) at least three attacks on US soil.


This sounds quite a bit like treason to me and as such, can carry the death penalty.


Now, I happen to live in Switzerland rather than the US and really only get patchy "info" on what's going on over there, much of it written in slanted ways such as what you exhibit in your post so... I don't have any strong thoughts about the specifics you are asking one way or the other.

HOWEVER, I am not against the death penalty, I am not against using killing force as a means against people committing war-type and war-time acts against my country, however they may come about. So, if you're asking if I think it is ok for Obama to order the killing of someone who aided in ensuring that thousands of people died on US soil - yes, I am okay with that.



Oh, and... I really do not appreciate upstarts who have a virtually blank profile making such provocative posts in the first place. Not "fair" to be a little firestarter and not actually GIVE anything about yourself. No profile, no intro...

I smell troll and it stinks.
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Old 01.10.2011, 12:35
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

I am not an American, but I would have killed Awlaki. Personally. With a wooden spoon. You don't need a court to convict a malarial mosquito, Awlaki was as a facet of a natural landscape, honest and public for all to see.

Anyway, it's the judicial killings I have a problem with, I'd guess that's for a different thread.
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Old 01.10.2011, 12:40
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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So, if you're asking if I think it is ok for Obama to order the killing of someone who aided in ensuring that thousands of people died on US soil - yes, I am okay with that.



Oh, and... I really do not appreciate upstarts who have a virtually blank profile making such provocative posts in the first place. Not "fair" to be a little firestarter and not actually GIVE anything about yourself.

I smell troll and it stinks.
On your first statement, why is it OK to do an extra-judicial killing as opposed to arresting him, brining him to court, and giving him due process, rule of law, etc.... convict him and then execute him? Is Obama's judgment on who to kill sufficient for you? Should all US presidents (in the future) also have that authority? Should any president of any country in fact then not also have that authority?

What is provocative here? Read an edition of The Economist and I'm sure some of these questions are also raised. Have a good morning
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Old 01.10.2011, 12:47
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

Not an American either but if somebody decares war on you then he/she gives you the right to kill in return.

Some quotes from Anwar al-Awlaki
" "Fighting the devil doesn't require consultation or prayers seeking divine guidance. They are the party of the devils.
"Fighting them is what is called for at this time. We have reached a point where it is either us or them.
"We are two opposites that will never come together. What they want can only be accomplished by our elimination. Therefore this is a defining battle."

"To the Muslims in America, I have this to say: How can your conscience allow you to live in peaceful coexistence with a nation that is responsible for the tyranny and crimes committed against your own brothers and sisters? I eventually came to the conclusion that jihad (holy struggle) against America is binding upon myself just as it is binding upon every other able Muslim"

I guess it is a good example of be careful what you wish for.
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Old 01.10.2011, 12:56
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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I guess it is a good example of be careful what you wish for.
Perhaps, but when a US presidential candidate replies with "Bomb Iran" to a question, perhaps Iran is justified building a nuclear bomb?

The slippery slope US has stepped on in recent years just raises a lot of concerns / questoins. I was reading statistics a few weeks ago - under Bush2 there were drone attacks as well, a few times a year, while under Obama this has now become just about a daily activity.

The underlying concern I have is that it appears people accept that it is "not legal" but justify it with "they're bad guys, so it's right anyway". That kind of logic is very dangerous... and of it starts to get consistently applied, it will come back to bite Americans. But hey, at least Iran freed the college students (?) who hiked into Iran last week... how dare they hold these innocent young souls in custody...
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Old 01.10.2011, 14:26
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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Do you get a lot of questions from people (e.g. the Swiss, other expats, or perhaps from your own mind?) about the extra-judicial killings taking place under Nobel prize winning Obama?
No, I think most Swiss like the idea of killing Muslims. Actually most Europeans.

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How do you respond? How do you feel about it (gut feel, and also more thoughtfully)?
One guy, a French guy said something to me, that it is rude for Americans to celebrate Bin Laden's death, not that it was wrong to kill him. The guy thought it was good to kill him.

I said...that sometimes it is not about the fact someone was killed, but a general relief that the person is no longer around to hurt you or cause trouble. If he had been captured, Americans would have responded the same way, because it was more about the feeling some justice had been served and a relief...yes some folks just care about revenge or the actual killing, but not the folks I know and I know more Americans than most Europeans talking heads will ever know, and lived in most places in America than them.

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Good/Evil are subjective - and while I'm pro-American, increasingly it appears to me that an objective outsider could be inclined to qualify the US as a terrorist state?
You don't need to be pro-American, just not bias one way or another. America is not always right or wrong. Life is more complicated than that. Also seperate the countries government from the people. America is far more politically diverse than most nations in Europe, and for example, 40-50% of people hated Bush his entire 8 years. That would be something like 130-150 million people. Now it is the same with Obama, and it will be with the next president, probably worse...our policies are much the same. In reality the average person on the street doesn't know much about Al Qaeda, the Middle East, or even Osama Bin Laden's background other than 9/11 and some vague stuff about Afghanistan...etc.

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In reference to Al Awlaki... there's a US politician who made some interesting comments a while back:


Is that grounds for Iran to assassinate him?
"assassinate" is a strong word.

Reality is even with in the U.S. every state does not agree what murder is.

In Texas, if you are on my property and will not leave (anywhere on my property) I can shoot you dead, in the back if I want to.

In New york state that is at best Man Slaughter, but likely murder.

How the hell are we supposed to get some type of international agreement on when it is permissible to take lethal state action against a known terrorist? Americans won't even agree on that.

Reality is, if you are looking for some moral international standard as to when it is okay to kill a guy trying to kill you (sending people to try to kill you)...well...good luck.

In this sense, right or wrong, "might makes right". Who is going to enforce a legal standard and punishment against the U.S.? Or even the UK, France, China, etc? No one.

That might upset you, go against your notion of fairness, equality, etc. However, nothing has changed in human history...and I don't see it changing in the near future.

In other words the guy picked a fight he could not finish. He got smacked down. End of story. Could have happened anywhere. He stated many times he wanted to kill Americans, he wanted other to kill Americans. He sent folks to kill Americans. Luckily he was not successful. We were successful in hitting him with a missle.

Now he is in paradise with his virgins right? We made him happy. Alah Akbar.
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Old 01.10.2011, 14:36
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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On your first statement, why is it OK to do an extra-judicial killing as opposed to arresting him, brining him to court, and giving him due process, rule of law, etc.... convict him and then execute him? Is Obama's judgment on who to kill sufficient for you? Should all US presidents (in the future) also have that authority? Should any president of any country in fact then not also have that authority?

What is provocative here? Read an edition of The Economist and I'm sure some of these questions are also raised. Have a good morning


Make a clear profile, not fake AND an intro and I *may* be bothered to put together some discussion with you.
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Old 01.10.2011, 14:43
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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No, I think most Swiss like the idea of killing Muslims. Actually most Europeans.
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Now he is in paradise with his virgins right? We made him happy. Alah Akbar.
You're skating on thin ice, I suggest you acquaint yourself with this forum's Terms of Use
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Old 01.10.2011, 14:52
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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You're skating on thin ice, I suggest you acquaint yourself with this forum's Terms of Use
Slow your roll...

I was being sarcastic. I guess that was not obvious, maybe I should have put a smiley face or something...

I think there is quite a bit of anti-Islam stuff going around in Europe, even more so than America, and we have actually had more conflict with the Muslim world, but no one is trying to ban Burqas all over the place or kick out legal immigrants (Americans want the illegal out but no one much mentions legal immigrants...) And yes I do know Europeans (here in Switzerland) who have expressed some extremely negative things about Muslims on the streets, things that I have never heard in the U.S. but out of some country side rednecks. The difference is all the Euros were educated professionals here working at multinationals.

As far as the Allah Akbar...uhm, I fully believe that is accurate, if this man's beliefs are correct, then he is a martyr and in Paradise with virgins.

So I was being sarcastic in that he died a hero and is being rewarded from his point of view. From the point of view of most on this board he was a terrorist scum bad that was killed. Some others think him a victim who had his life take without benefit of a formal trial.
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Old 01.10.2011, 14:53
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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No, I think most Swiss like the idea of killing Muslims. Actually most Europeans.
Most Europeans would also like to get rid of most other Europeans, esp those in their neighborhood.

If this thread goes on long enough, can I start my own teary thread about America bashing and you'll all rush to my support?
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Old 01.10.2011, 15:00
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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Most Europeans would also like to get rid of most other Europeans, esp those in their neighborhood.

If this thread goes on long enough, can I start my own teary thread about America bashing and you'll all rush to my support?

Haha, your first statement is true. I think in Switzerland, they would "get rid of Die Swabi (Germans)" first, then the Muslims. lol

The Belgians would get rid of each other (based on language). I can go on and on...

Europe is grand...You will need another 1000 years of Open borders to get rid of the nationalism that evolved over the last 300-400 years.
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Old 01.10.2011, 15:06
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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No, I think most Swiss like the idea of killing Muslims. Actually most Europeans.
most swiss like the idea of killing muslims and so do most europeans?

OR

most swiss like the idea of killing muslims and in fact would like to kill most (non-Swiss) Europeans as well?

Just want to be sure I understand correctly what it is you are saying
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Old 01.10.2011, 15:09
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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most swiss like the idea of killing muslims and so do most europeans?

OR

most swiss like the idea of killing muslims and in fact would like to kill most (non-Swiss) Europeans as well?

Just want to be sure I understand correctly what it is you are saying
I was making a joke. I do believe most Europeans in 2011 don't want more immigrant from Muslim nations, are suspicious of Muslims, and have some xenophobic/racist tendencies toward Muslims at a rate that I'm not used to hearing where I come from (although we have had more conflict with Muslims).

My main point was most of the Europeans who have said anything were upset that they thought Americans 'celebrated death" not that we killed Osama or a Muslim, they seemed to have no objection.

Now, there are some who are worried about "legal procedure" but I have not encountered those folks, I just see them on TV.
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Old 01.10.2011, 15:22
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

Catching someone who has committed a crime and bringing them to justice is one thing, stopping someone who has caused intentional killing and has himself proclaimed his intent to cause more killings, and urges others to do the same is entirely something else.

The former may be a case for the judiciary. The latter is a case for pragmatic self-defense, not morals, not principles, not law, not Registered Letters.

If someone has killed your mother, has declared his intent to kill your whole family, then friends, then acquaintances, etc., whatcha gonna do?
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Old 01.10.2011, 15:30
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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Catching someone who has committed a crime and bringing them to justice is one thing, stopping someone who has caused intentional killing and has himself proclaimed his intent to cause more killings, and urges others to do the same is entirely something else.

The former may be a case for the judiciary. The latter is a case for pragmatic self-defense, not morals, not principles, not law, not Registered Letters.

If someone has killed your mother, has declared his intent to kill your whole family, then friends, then acquaintances, etc., whatcha gonna do?
What you are proposing is returning to the stone ages (or perhaps just 19th century Albania with honor killings etc.).

Some questions:
- how do you know Awliki is the cause behind intentional killing? you trust the US government on this?
- this pragmatic self-defense you propose... would be a principle all could claim? reason for asking is because it appears to be a very good argument for say an Iran to get nuclear weapons, North Korea to have them, etc.

Counter question: if somebody killed your mother, claiming the right to self-defense... would you not then want to kill (and feel justified in doing so) this killer in return?
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Old 01.10.2011, 15:31
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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If someone has killed your mother, has declared his intent to kill your whole family, then friends, then acquaintances, etc., whatcha gonna do?
I forgot to answer your question: I'd probably focus on figuring out why I pissed the person off so much
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Old 01.10.2011, 15:54
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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What you are proposing is returning to the stone ages (or perhaps just 19th century Albania with honor killings etc.).

Some questions:
- how do you know Awliki is the cause behind intentional killing? you trust the US government on this?
- this pragmatic self-defense you propose... would be a principle all could claim? reason for asking is because it appears to be a very good argument for say an Iran to get nuclear weapons, North Korea to have them, etc.

Counter question: if somebody killed your mother, claiming the right to self-defense... would you not then want to kill (and feel justified in doing so) this killer in return?
You are deliberately mixing situations for the sake of intellectual debate. When you are looking down the barrel of a loaded gun or flying through the air, wondering whose arm that is flying by, you are not considering intellectual debates.

Where you have the time and space to reflect on your own position and that of others seeking resolution, you may do that, however when you are engaging real life situations in real time, your priorities and processes are immediate and pragmatic.

Don't mix apples and oranges and engage in intellectual debates if you are not experienced and in possession of all pertinent info.

Half the world thinks it can talk the other half to death and the other half have had enough of empty talk. Try to resolve that without intellectual debate if you want stop wasting your and everybody else's time and energy.

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Old 01.10.2011, 16:42
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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Don't mix apples and oranges and engage in intellectual debates if you are not experienced and in possession of all pertinent info.

.
But it's perfectly fine to say "yes, kill that person" without knowing all the pertinent info? Or is what you're saying: "we should trust our leaders"?

Sometimes ugly discussions should be had... please enlighten us though on the barrel of a loaded gun which you have been looking at which makes your judgment carry more weight?

A lot of rhetoric in your post, but not a lot of relevance.
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Old 01.10.2011, 17:35
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Re: Question for US expats on extra-judicial killings

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But it's perfectly fine to say "yes, kill that person" without knowing all the pertinent info? Or is what you're saying: "we should trust our leaders"?

Sometimes ugly discussions should be had... please enlighten us though on the barrel of a loaded gun which you have been looking at which makes your judgment carry more weight?

A lot of rhetoric in your post, but not a lot of relevance.
If it makes you feel better, think of it as "assisted suicide".

I would like to think that a-hole traitor died like this:


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