Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 04.10.2011, 11:12
J_T's Avatar
J_T J_T is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: near Bern
Posts: 1,080
Groaned at 20 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,175 Times in 523 Posts
J_T has a reputation beyond reputeJ_T has a reputation beyond reputeJ_T has a reputation beyond reputeJ_T has a reputation beyond reputeJ_T has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Well, in America "freedom" is a misnomer.

Americans have liberty, in other words they are at liberty to move residence anywhere, whereas the law has become a straightjacket on just about everything imaginable. Obvious symptoms - police "presence", overflowing courtrooms and jails

Europeans have less liberty, in that they have to register wherever they move residence with varying degrees as to where they are granted residency, however law is more realistic, less ominous and generally applied more reasonably. Obvious symptoms - administrative red tape, rarely see police, don't even know where the courthouses and jails are

Major difference: America would appear to be entering an age of crime waves and police oppression, whereas Europe is emerging from an age of political and police oppression.

Freedom is a relative term. "Rights" appear nowhere in nature, only in law.

...just my observation...
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04.10.2011, 11:49
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Langenthal
Posts: 27
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 25 Times in 9 Posts
jbray has become a little unpopularjbray has become a little unpopular
Re: Occupy America

Uh, I just got a job in the US, will be leaving Switzerland at the end of this month. Granted, it's not as much as I make here, but all things considered, my quality of life will be about the same, ie. Yes, I'll be making less money but I won't have to pay 10 CHF for a mixed drink or 150 CHF for dinner for 2 any more.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank jbray for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:06
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Hahahaha. I like that. Much different from a dumbed-down hooligon riot? Have you actually watched any of the interviews with these protestors? Children dressing up as zombies, people who have no idea what they're protesting against other than a vague idea of "Wall Street", etc.

People are trying to play it up, but this is not a significant protest, either in terms of subject or quantity of protestors.



Malarkey. There are some jobs, there's just not as many as there were in the past. I know people who have, recently, successfully found work in the US. It's certainly harder than it used to be, but don't damage your credibility through exaggeration.

I agree, there are SOME jobs, SOME places. But most jobs, most places just don't really exist. America has more M.B.A bartenders than anywhere else.

As far as interviews of course you will only see the dumb people. That's mass media at its finest.
Activist owns fox news.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...id=2PiXDTK_CBY

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank California Dreamer for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:11
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Monaco
Posts: 514
Groaned at 61 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 658 Times in 281 Posts
scrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
So what exactly does your employer "produce"?

The riots are against the type of business you are in. They see "wall street" as the problem, not the solution.

The protests will lead to nothing, as always. I don't think it takes some conspiracy theory to accept that the world is run by an extremely small number of people. In the US it's what? Maybe the fifty richest families that give out enough cash during presidential campaigns to effectively decide who wins. Not only directly but even more through the many companies they own through many channels. So it is absolutely not transparent who actually supported which candidate - even if there are some lists to pretend there is clarity.
Of course could in theory the voter decide differently, but well, if the many ads wouldnt work they would not spend the billions on them would they?

I never understood why Americans continuously bang on "freedom" - from what I see do they have less of it than most Europeans, even if they are allowed to buy a gun at wal mart. Looks like a huge gap between the claims and the reality.

The efficient flow of capital underpins just about everything that works in a free market economy. It enables the innovation and production of all tangible and intangible goods. Just because you cannot hold in your hand like an iPad what banks produce does not make it any less real. Sorry you cannot wrap your mind around that concept.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:15
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
The efficient flow of capital underpins just about everything that works in a free market economy. It enables the innovation and production of all tangible and intangible goods. Just because you cannot hold in your hand like an iPad what banks produce does not make it any less real. Sorry you cannot wrap your mind around that concept.

What free market? Where? Oh, you mean all those bailouts to save the big banks while letting all the small regional banks and small business go out of business? Yep, free market at its best.
No one like a wild fire but sometime the forest needs to be burnt down.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank California Dreamer for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:15
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,029
Groaned at 286 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 10,603 Times in 3,981 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Seing there are still many more people wanting to get into the US than wanting to get out, it can't be that bad. Maybe people need to get off their high horse more and accept less glamorous jobs.
Wow... Do you really think that there aren't already a lot of Americans willing to settle for "less glamorous" jobs?

A friend of mine's niece manages a McDonald's in the US. They advertised a minimum-wage position recently and within one day, they had already received about 600 responses!

Trust me. People there want the jobs. Do you honestly think that these people WANT to lose their homes or to not be able to feed their families?
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Monaco
Posts: 514
Groaned at 61 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 658 Times in 281 Posts
scrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Well, in America "freedom" is a misnomer.

Americans have liberty, in other words they are at liberty to move residence anywhere, whereas the law has become a straightjacket on just about everything imaginable. Obvious symptoms - police "presence", overflowing courtrooms and jails

Europeans have less liberty, in that they have to register wherever they move residence with varying degrees as to where they are granted residency, however law is more realistic, less ominous and generally applied more reasonably. Obvious symptoms - administrative red tape, rarely see police, don't even know where the courthouses and jails are

Major difference: America would appear to be entering an age of crime waves and police oppression, whereas Europe is emerging from an age of political and police oppression.

Freedom is a relative term. "Rights" appear nowhere in nature, only in law.

...just my observation...
... which are not very observant at all.

Just platitudes and generalities not couched at all in reality or supported by any examples.

If you want to speak about freedom, in the US, I would be allowed to wear a burka or build a minaret.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:19
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Monaco
Posts: 514
Groaned at 61 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 658 Times in 281 Posts
scrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
What free market? Where? Oh, you mean all those bailouts to save the big banks while letting all the small regional banks and small business go out of business? Yep, free market at its best.
No one like a wild fire but sometime the forest needs to be burnt down.
Would you address my argument that banks provide a useful service to the economy rather than pounce on the word "free market" when it is not really relevant to the thrust of the conversation?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:22
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,417
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 10,952 Times in 3,253 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
I agree, there are SOME jobs, SOME places. But most jobs, most places just don't really exist. America has more M.B.A bartenders than anywhere else.
Is bartending not a job then, in your estimation?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank MathNut for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:22
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA, former Zurich
Posts: 2,041
Groaned at 14 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 4,811 Times in 1,660 Posts
BokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
So what exactly does your employer "produce"?

The riots are against the type of business you are in. They see "wall street" as the problem, not the solution.
We "produce" resources - free up money to be invested by companies in research, new plants, new technology generation, and create new jobs. Also, we help reducing uncertainty by promoting straightforward, compliant records which are a fair representation of the reality of a business. At least we try our best Some people argue that this takes away jobs from one country in favor of others (say US vs Switzerland), but to me it's economically efficient allocation of resources.

Btw, I really liked your post Trev!

Quote:
View Post
You know, banks wouldn't have so much influence over things if people wouldn't borrow so much money. We borrow for school, houses, cars, and just because we have a credit card in our hand. People should try writing a budget that includes savings for rainy days and large purchases, and then stick to it. If you want something, figure a way to save for it, and buy it when you can afford it.

A man in debt is so far a slave.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I agree that banks haven't always played fair and ethical (i.e. selling made-up assets to people who had no clue about investments), and I am in favor of punishment for wrongdoing. Then again, I wonder - even if you have 0 financial training, before you invest your hard-earned money, wouldn't you do some research? Heck, I know 0 about cars, but before purchasing one with my hard-earned $$$, I made pretty darn sure to research all kinds of stuff and get multiple opinions, and not believe what the first dealer off the street told me. Why can't people do the same with financial investments? On the other hand, I completely agree with your idea that some people have borrowed way over their capabilities, and banks let them do it. The blame is not all on one side or the other IMO.

Quote:
View Post
Maybe you don't understand. There are NO jobs. You can send your resume left and right but for how many years until you lose hope?
That's not what I am hearing. Yes, it's harder than ever to find a job. But all my friends who lost theirs, from high tech companies in Silicon valley to manufacturing plants in Wisconsin, have found another one within 2-3 months. Not ideal, but don't tell me there are no jobs. The one great thing I admire in the US is the incredible flexibility of the job market, which - true - makes losing one's job more easy, but on the other hand it's also much easier to find another one, compared to other countries. I would much rather be unemployed and looking for a job in the US than, say, my home country, where the rigidity of the job market is a paradox and creates all kinds of problems.

Quote:
View Post
To anyone who posted above that they should, instead, be out looking for work... you apparently have very little understanding of the current situation in the US.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I have lived there several years, but don't live there anymore. Perhaps things are radically different from what they were a year ago, but then again, that's not what I am hearing from friends currently living there.

Quote:
View Post
Maybe people need to get off their high horse more and accept less glamorous jobs.
Completely agree, that's also a very valid point. If I look for a job and turn down any work that I don't feel "appropriate" because I have multiple degrees, etc. then it is my problem, not the lack of jobs. Of course, since I studied many years, I would like to get a job in my field, but if I need to feed a family (or pay for a degree, or simply survive) and I need the money, then I am picking fruits and vegetables or making photocopies all day (which I have) if need be, while I keep looking.

I just disagree with the general attitude of entitlement and "well, I can't get the job I want, so I am going to sit around and protest until I get it, instead of doing something, anything, while I look to move up and forward". But that is just me, maybe I got it all wrong in life
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank BokerTov for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:24
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Would you address my argument that banks provide a useful service to the economy rather than pounce on the word "free market" when it is not really relevant to the thrust of the conversation?

Because "free market" does not exist in the U.S. Its more like "subsidy market".

Yes most banks provide a useful service. Unfortunate they were not big enough to not fail.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:28
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Monaco
Posts: 514
Groaned at 61 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 658 Times in 281 Posts
scrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond reputescrambled has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Because "free market" does not exist in the U.S. Its more like "subsidy market".

Yes most banks provide a useful service. Unfortunate they were not big enough to not fail.
Question for you: who was responsible for 9/11?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:31
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Question for you: who was responsible for 9/11?


There are more questions than answers. I do not know.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:34
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Is bartending not a job then, in your estimation?

Yes it is a job. But it will not pay cost of living and student loans. So then why get a degree if your only hopes for employment are just above the poverty level.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank California Dreamer for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:38
M. Ploymi's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: GE
Posts: 925
Groaned at 34 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 810 Times in 356 Posts
M. Ploymi has a reputation beyond reputeM. Ploymi has a reputation beyond reputeM. Ploymi has a reputation beyond reputeM. Ploymi has a reputation beyond reputeM. Ploymi has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
Hahahaha. I like that. Much different from a dumbed-down hooligon riot? Have you actually watched any of the interviews with these protestors? Children dressing up as zombies, people who have no idea what they're protesting against other than a vague idea of "Wall Street", etc.

People are trying to play it up, but this is not a significant protest, either in terms of subject or quantity of protestors.
Are you kidding me? Of course this is a significant protest, especially when compared to the nonsense that was taking place in England.

Many different forms of peaceful protesting exist, even if it means dressing up as zombies. It gets attention. Sure, there are some people that are clueless as to all of the details, but this is a tiny, tiny minority (much unlike the vast majority throughout England who were looting and rioting for the sake of looting and rioting). I'd be willing to bet that every single protester taking part in Occupy America is at least aware that they are not happy with the status quo - they know they want change and are willing to stand up for it. Isn't that enough?

Personally, I think you yourself are a bit un-/misinformed if you think that these protests aren't significant in their motivation or their size/impact. It's already reached a global audience and is growing by the day. Things like this don't go unnoticed. What the outcome will be is a mystery, but I think it's insulting that you play it down to the level of the recent London riots.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank M. Ploymi for this useful post:
  #36  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:44
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Occupy America

Protest-envy.

A truly modern-day phenomenon.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:44
jsherk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brutten
Posts: 356
Groaned at 7 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 379 Times in 174 Posts
jsherk has a reputation beyond reputejsherk has a reputation beyond reputejsherk has a reputation beyond reputejsherk has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

It's easy for highly skilled or highly educated persons working in Switzerland where the unemployment rate is about 2.1% to think that everyone who wants a job can just go get one...brilliant.

Here's some simplified math:
US populatin = 300 million+
Unemployment = 9.1%
% of population working age 18-65 = I would guess about 40%
People without jobs = 11 million > than total population of Switzerland
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:54
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,910
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,188 Times in 3,402 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
So what exactly does your employer "produce"?

The riots are against the type of business you are in. They see "wall street" as the problem, not the solution.

The protests will lead to nothing, as always. I don't think it takes some conspiracy theory to accept that the world is run by an extremely small number of people. In the US it's what? Maybe the fifty richest families that give out enough cash during presidential campaigns to effectively decide who wins. Not only directly but even more through the many companies they own through many channels. So it is absolutely not transparent who actually supported which candidate - even if there are some lists to pretend there is clarity.
Of course could in theory the voter decide differently, but well, if the many ads wouldnt work they would not spend the billions on them would they?

I never understood why Americans continuously bang on "freedom" - from what I see do they have less of it than most Europeans, even if they are allowed to buy a gun at wal mart. Looks like a huge gap between the claims and the reality.
"Freedom" access to ,Cheap gas , Nascar,NFL,NHL ,Yellow stone park,Disney World and BEER
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:55
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
It's easy for highly skilled or highly educated persons working in Switzerland where the unemployment rate is about 2.1% to think that everyone who wants a job can just go get one...brilliant.

Here's some simplified math:
US populatin = 300 million+
Unemployment = 9.1%
% of population working age 18-65 = I would guess about 40%
People without jobs = 11 million > than total population of Switzerland

Unemployment is much higher than 9.1%. That number only counts the people actively seeking new employment or are receiving unemployment benefits. It does not count the people who have lost hope and gave up (sad) or the people whose benefits have expired, which would send them into the first camp. Some estimates claim 25% unemployment.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank California Dreamer for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 04.10.2011, 12:59
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Occupy America

Quote:
View Post
"Freedom" access to ,Cheap gas , Nascar,NFL,NHL ,Yellow stone park,Disney World and BEER

Its the access to free gas that got us in these problems. But I'm with you on the NFL, NHL, Disney Land, and good ol' American micro brew.
Sorry can't support NASCAR, I would rather watch a dog chase its tail.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank California Dreamer for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wondering how you'll occupy your kids this summer on a budget? (Zurich Area) Kittster Travel/day trips/free time 6 01.07.2010 15:48
Sick of America Bashing [and other thoughts about America] TheSpouse Complaints corner 569 24.10.2009 14:03
Things to occupy a housewife bridgjo Other/general 1 29.06.2007 00:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0