Charging for services does not automatically mean you have low morals?
I'm not gonna play this game of words, this might be true but the opposite is not necessarily true. The point is if you say 'we liberated libya' then you say 'we gonna charge them for the privilege' it doesn't sound the same... Anyway would you be prepared to pay for the damage NATO caused to the infrastructure? Oh hold on you would? By taking over contructions contracts? Ah I see
I see you are avoiding the elephant in the room which is this action was a UN security council decision; not a UK/France initiative.
Err you will find it was a UK/France initiative, backed by a lousy UN mandate which supposedly gave them the right to protect innocent people but exploited by NATO to overthrow a dictator so I'm not sure who's ignoring the elephant in the room
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In general, When there are masses of people protesting against a dictator, help from other countries like NATO allies can help much to oust a brutal regime.
And it's very naive thinking, of possibility of changing such a regime without casualties and pains, but that's the price needs to be paid.
Did west or Europe got democrasy without blood,....?
Didn't western allies kill during WWs,...?
You can always blame this or that for killing or invade, or whatever term, but sometime real fight is inevitable to gain freedom.
Of course no one can guaranty things will be immediately better, but this is part of the path to democracy (which is often a zic-zac path). There are up and downs, left and rights,... but in the end the move in long term point of view is toward forward.
Otherwise, dictators should be kept forever and ever, becuase not sure what happens next.
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In general, When there are masses of people protesting against a dictator, help from other countries like NATO allies can help much to oust a brutal regime.
And it's very naive thinking, of possibility of changing such a regime without casualties and pains, but that's the price needs to be paid.
Did west or Europe got democrasy without blood,....?
Didn't western allies kill during WWs,...?
You can always blame this or that for killing or invade, or whatever term, but sometime real fight is inevitable to gain freedom.
Of course no one can guaranty things will be immediately better, but this is part of the path to democracy (which is often a zic-zac path). There are up and downs, left and rights,... but in the end the move in long term point of view is toward forward.
Otherwise, dictators should be kept forever and ever, becuase not sure what happens next.
You can't just use democracy as a green light to occupy, overthrow goverments and intervene in other countries political systems... Western countries simply bend the rules and put spin on events simply because it's convenient for them, and they're allowed to do that because they're the dominant power but for how long?
Sorry but I'm not buying that... When protests happen in the arab world it's called an arab spring and a revolution and when you have protests in the west well it's just riots and thugs and what not... Only time will tell, but this is not a good start and never will be.
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I suppose if you were sitting in one of Gadaffi's jails having your finger nails pulled out or whatever was top of the menu that week it was very comforting to know Libya had the highest Human Development Index on the continent
My Dad worked in Libya for 18 years and was taken in for questioning once, but luckily he was let go without having his fingernails removed.
He worked for an American-owned oil company which was later taken over again by the Libyans.
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I also lived in Libya, with no sense of fear - even the time I stupidly forgot it was Ramadam and stood outside a shop, licking on an icecream, I was not treated badly.
One thing that I don't understand - I have seen comments from a few of the people I knew when Ilived there - they are acting overjoyed at the death of Gaddaffi, but at the same time are asking how long it will be before they can go back, using comments such as "I felt so settled there and can't wait to go back." Conradictory, I think.
Personally, I had a great standard of living there and I do agree with the earlier poster who mentioned that at least these dictators brought stability to their countries.
What saddens me, is the fact that I expect that some of the friendly, naive young men I knew, are likely to have lost their lives in the last few months. For what? I expect others will quickly find that they are going back to exactly the same jobs and lifestyle that they had under Gaddaffi, just minus a few friends and family members.
Change may have been desirable and inevitable, but it could have been achieved without this ridiculous, heartbreaking war.
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Dictators may bring stability to a majority of people, but so what?
Is that a good measure of a country? Say I was a dictator and decided to execute 10% of the population at random and give their money to the other 90%. Is that good?
Say I gave free healthcare but imprisoned anyone who complained that my son, who owned an oil company, was destroying the environment and keeping most of the money himself?
How many people can a dictator kill, either as hard numbers or as a percentage of the population, before those who were "stable" should think it a bad thing?
As for the war ... religious factions held in place by dictators who unelectedly took control of a country whose borders were drawn up in straight lines by a foreign invading force decades ago. This is what happens. Heartbreaking, yes, but inevitable in my opinion.
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This dictator gave free electricity, USD50K towards owning a home for married couples, gold watches and gifts, almost free oil prices, opportunities for fully funded scholarships abroad, no VAT or taxes, factory prices for cars, Postgrads receive a wage from the government until finding a job, each family receives EUR300 a month etc. ( heck, I wouldn´t mind )
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This dictator gave free electricity, USD50K towards owning a home for married couples, gold watches and gifts, almost free oil prices, opportunities for fully funded scholarships abroad, no VAT or taxes, factory prices for cars, Postgrads receive a wage from the government until finding a job, each family receives EUR300 a month etc. ( heck, I wouldn´t mind )
Wow! How nice! All of that as long as you shut your mouth.
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You can't just use democracy as a green light to occupy, overthrow goverments and intervene in other countries political systems... Western countries simply bend the rules and put spin on events simply because it's convenient for them, and they're allowed to do that because they're the dominant power but for how long?
Sorry but I'm not buying that... When protests happen in the arab world it's called an arab spring and a revolution and when you have protests in the west well it's just riots and thugs and what not... Only time will tell, but this is not a good start and never will be.
In the Arab world it is called an arab spring and a revolution because it is not a democracy & you cannot vote or start political parties or stand yourself for political positions.
About "when you have protests in the west" - then you have democracy & you can vote. You can even stand for such positions yourself & get voted in without any risk of being shot, jailed or tortured.
Riots and thugs and what not are instigated by people who do not want to follow the democratic process, usually because they are in a minority & know they will never persuade the majority & never win.
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You can't just use democracy as a green light to occupy, overthrow goverments and intervene in other countries political systems... Western countries simply bend the rules and put spin on events simply because it's convenient for them, and they're allowed to do that because they're the dominant power but for how long?
Sorry but I'm not buying that... When protests happen in the arab world it's called an arab spring and a revolution and when you have protests in the west well it's just riots and thugs and what not... Only time will tell, but this is not a good start and never will be.
At least in west you are free to go to east so go and live there and enjoy life there! Do you think they are not capitalistic countries there! Be sure they are far more capitalist without right of any complain.
No matter we or they like or not this is a fact: the path west has gone in last a few decades, is the path east will go ,and not the other way, right or wrong. You can't swim against the current for long.
If we can chat now on a PC or mobile or internet, with full stomach, in a safe and sound and warm room,...... is because of this system (though human will always complain, and expects better system).
And last but not least: Stability by power of gun and fear is not stablity, otherwise wouldn't collapse in a few months. It's just a short term suppression. Rule by fear, doesn't last long anyway.
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If we can chat now on a PC or mobile or internet, with full stomach, in a safe and sound and warm room,...... is because of this system (though human will always complain, and expects better system)
I was able to do all that in in Libya. Unlike several other countries I have lived in, I do not recall ever seeing anyone begging on the streets there, or spending the night outside, through having nowhere to live.
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In the Arab world it is called an arab spring and a revolution because it is not a democracy & you cannot vote or start political parties or stand yourself for political positions.
Hold on a second their sir Matron, there are a hundred and one sweeping generalisations in that statement alone!
It's not a democracy? Well let's assume it's not, by the west's own democratic rules, one of the main principles is sovereignty, which in lament's terms means it's none of the west's damn business! Period! People in those countries can work it out for themselves even if it takes them a millenia, they did it in Tunisia without western intervention, and they did it in Egypt without western intervention and guess what it was only a few months ago, but when the west gets involved and takes sides it starts to stink! The former leaders of Tunisia and Egypt have / are facing trials (Ben Ali was sentenced in absentia to 35 years and ailing Mubarek is still being tried) which is light years ahead of the public lynching and assassination of Gaddafi and his sons brought on by... wait for it... the west and it's apprentice the NTC. Now I'm not an expert on democracy but I'd say that what happened in Tunisia and Egypt is more than democratic in my eyes and the west was neither needed or wanted for that matter.
You can not vote or start political parties? In which countries exactly? It might be worth starting a debate about the maturity of the political parties and voting systems in those countries (in another thread) but it's certainly not true that they don't exist so I'm gonna ignore that comment of yours.
About "when you have protests in the west" - then you have democracy & you can vote. You can even stand for such positions yourself & get voted in without any risk of being shot, jailed or tortured.
I'm not sure who you're trying to kid here The western democratic model is not without it's flaws, the main important part is that people don't stick their noses in other people's business (going back to sovereignty here), the west is simply a big bully, the allies created the UN after they won WW2 as an authority to justify inhumane military attacks against countries who don't share the same ideology, this in itself is undemocratic! Gaddafi might have been a dictator in Libya, the west on the other hand is a dicator of the world! The west will not rest until all other ideologies are subdued and normalised to fit in with it's political and economic agendas'.
Riots and thugs and what not are instigated by people who do not want to follow the democratic process, usually because they are in a minority & know they will never persuade the majority & never win.
This only highlights the flaws of the democratic process. Anyway I think what has happened is not at all a victory but rather a failure of the Libyan people to seize the opportunity and show that the people taking over are more democratic than their previous ruler. From what I've seen they are worse.
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More true colours... brought to you by the aspiring middle classes' news paper...
It doesn't get any more blatant that this... Get over there and 'fill yer boots'
Quote:
"Libya is a relatively wealthy country with oil reserves, and I expect there will be opportunities for British and other companies to get involved in the reconstruction of Libya," he told the BBC in an interview.
"I would expect British companies, even British sales directors, [to be] packing their suitcases and looking to get out to Libya and take part in the reconstruction of that country as soon as they can," said Hammond, who replaced Liam Fox as defence secretary a week ago.
Daniel Kawczynski, a Conservative backbencher and chair of the cross-party parliamentary group on Libya, said Britain should come first when it comes to awarding contracts, which would also pay back some of the cost of some £300m spent on military action.
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The western democratic model is not without it's flaws, the main important part is that people don't stick their noses in other people's business (going back to sovereignty here), the west is simply a big bully, the allies created the UN after they won WW2 as an authority to justify inhumane military attacks against countries who don't share the same ideology, this in itself is undemocratic! Gaddafi might have been a dictator in Libya, the west on the other hand is a dicator of the world! The west will not rest until all other ideologies are subdued and normalised to fit in with it's political and economic agendas'.
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