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  #21  
Old 15.11.2011, 00:07
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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I'm sorry Wolli, but unfortunately the 1.9 trillion Euro figure is correct.
Alright, then it is less than 2 trillions
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  #22  
Old 15.11.2011, 16:00
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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While I realize that your negative analysis is based on the bad facts, optimism is needed. The job to be done in your country is gigantic, true, and possibly impossible, but Mr Monti apparently tries to achieve what can be achieved.
And Monte as a true Italian has made sure that he is getting a huge payment and status for his position with no doubt a few more Euros/Lires to be made on the usual back-handers that are a way of life in Italy.

Italians don't go into politics just for the wage packet (which is one of the best in the EC) but it is all the dodgy deals with back handers they get.

Last edited by Cashboy; 15.11.2011 at 16:13.
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  #23  
Old 15.11.2011, 16:34
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

Well I think the one and a half pages of this thread exemplify most of the positions Italians actively take (optimistic, pessimistic, heartbroken) everyday, sometimes even going through more than one at once .
I really like Mr Monti, maybe, as Federica says, more for his charisma (hey, he'd an academic in the end ) than for what he (or anyone, really) is really capable of doing in the current conditions - it is clear that he has been handed over a mandate which any sane person would have escaped from in any way possible.

There are a million elements to the debate, which range from structural economic problems to issues of mentality and cultural models, which cannot obviously all be Mr B's fault, but which are proper of an era (the one in which my generation has grown up) that has indeed screwed up much of the good there was in Italy. It's getting harder and harder to think that we could do (and be) much better than this, and that is perhaps the worst thing of all.
That's precisely why, despite having always been very critical with Mr B, I couldn't help finding the parties and celebrations on Saturday desperately naive. I'm not sure people understand how big of a deal it is.
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  #24  
Old 15.11.2011, 16:51
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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That's precisely why, despite having always been very critical with Mr B, I couldn't help finding the parties and celebrations on Saturday desperately naive. I'm not sure people understand how big of a deal it is.
Yes, I didn't like to see the parties on TV either...most people (right AND left) really don't realize about the predicament we're in. Not all Mr. B's fault? Sure. Was he elected by the people? Sure.

To the posters arguing about Mr. Monti being B's party's puppet, and not being elected by the people, I just want to reply that I wish there were more economists and less politicians in charge. I wish. My happiness about Mr. Monti is really a hope.
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  #25  
Old 15.11.2011, 20:42
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

of course we're optimistic, we're italians: we are programmed for "survival" whatever comes, be it poverty, rubbish heaps or crime

you'd be surprised to learn how many italians abroad - among them yours faithfully - invest most of their savings in ITALY. call it idealism... or rather idiocy

we do believe in our country, notwithstanding all aberrations. above all, we LOVE it.
it's all about emotions, really. those that make you feel like the king of the world when you sit on the terrace of an ancient peasants' house on the ligurian hills and look at a landscape which still seems today like it had been painted yesterday by leonardo da vinci himself... this is our pride. as long as nobody severs those ties with our golden past (and sorry mr B, as much as you tried with your vulgar court of whores and jesters, you couldn't so much as scratch the image of what italy once meant for the world) there's HOPE for our country.

sorry, been sentimental again

by the way it's really touching and very very encouraging to see how many foreigners really care about italy! thank you!





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While I realize that your negative analysis is based on the bad facts, optimism is needed. The job to be done in your country is gigantic, true, and possibly impossible, but Mr Monti apparently tries to achieve what can be achieved.
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  #26  
Old 15.11.2011, 21:47
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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Well I think the one and a half pages of this thread exemplify most of the positions Italians actively take (optimistic, pessimistic, heartbroken) everyday, sometimes even going through more than one at once .
I really like Mr Monti, maybe, as Federica says, more for his charisma (hey, he'd an academic in the end ) than for what he (or anyone, really) is really capable of doing in the current conditions - it is clear that he has been handed over a mandate which any sane person would have escaped from in any way possible.

There are a million elements to the debate, which range from structural economic problems to issues of mentality and cultural models, which cannot obviously all be Mr B's fault, but which are proper of an era (the one in which my generation has grown up) that has indeed screwed up much of the good there was in Italy. It's getting harder and harder to think that we could do (and be) much better than this, and that is perhaps the worst thing of all.
That's precisely why, despite having always been very critical with Mr B, I couldn't help finding the parties and celebrations on Saturday desperately naive. I'm not sure people understand how big of a deal it is.
Naive they may have been, but Silvio Berlusconi clearly was one of the worst of all the many rulers in Italian history, possibly not THE worst, but clearly in the top segment. And so, that he finally had to leave was high time, as everything is better than him. I mean, if you combine Benito Mussolini and Ronald Reagan into one, and delete all positive aspects of those two men, the result is: Silvio Berlusconi The only good thing about him was that he did not lead Italy into a major war
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  #27  
Old 15.11.2011, 21:51
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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Yes, I didn't like to see the parties on TV either...most people (right AND left) really don't realize about the predicament we're in. Not all Mr. B's fault? Sure. Was he elected by the people? Sure.

To the posters arguing about Mr. Monti being B's party's puppet, and not being elected by the people, I just want to reply that I wish there were more economists and less politicians in charge. I wish. My happiness about Mr. Monti is really a hope.
That somebody was elected by the people is not an excuse for immoral and incapable and shabby government. While not everything is his fault, he did not do anything really in damage-limiting. True, the situation Italy is in is horrible beyond doubt, and Mr Monti may fail to correct it all. But what matters is that somebody tries to tackle the problems and at least solve a part of the mess.
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Old 15.11.2011, 22:04
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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Naive they may have been, but Silvio Berlusconi clearly was one of the worst of all the many rulers in Italian history, possibly not THE worst, but clearly in the top segment. And so, that he finally had to leave was high time, as everything is better than him. I mean, if you combine Benito Mussolini and Ronald Reagan into one, and delete all positive aspects of those two men, the result is: Silvio Berlusconi The only good thing about him was that he did not lead Italy into a major war
perfect analysis, I wouldn't have dared make it myself
the only objection I can make as a staunch believer in parliamentary democracy is that berlusconi was democratically elected a lot of times by the italian people, which cannot be said about our friend monti. or, as my berlusconi-generation 10-year-old son rather bluntly put it the other day while watching Monti being celebrated on the italian news: "But mum, who was monti elected by?!"

what do I tell him: "actually by no one, but don't worry if this contradicts all democratic principles mummy has been teaching you - it's for your own good!" ??
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Old 15.11.2011, 22:06
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

sorry, I just realised our posts crossed... but still, if berlusconi was that bad people could have demonstrated to take him down (it happened, but not enough)
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  #30  
Old 15.11.2011, 22:47
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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That somebody was elected by the people is not an excuse for immoral and incapable and shabby government. While not everything is his fault, he did not do anything really in damage-limiting. True, the situation Italy is in is horrible beyond doubt, and Mr Monti may fail to correct it all. But what matters is that somebody tries to tackle the problems and at least solve a part of the mess.
About "That somebody was elected by the people is not an excuse for immoral and incapable and shabby government" I agree

About "what matters is that somebody tries to tackle the problems and at least solve a part of the mess" I agree in principle but I do not like to see a democratic country led by an un-elected leader; I fear this could be used by EU un-elected officials as a precedent to force more & more un-elected leaders on democracies. In fact I do not like the whole concept of EU un-elected officials (e.g. commissioners) acquiring ever more & more power.
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  #31  
Old 16.11.2011, 00:43
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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perfect analysis, I wouldn't have dared make it myself
the only objection I can make as a staunch believer in parliamentary democracy is that berlusconi was democratically elected a lot of times by the italian people, which cannot be said about our friend monti. or, as my berlusconi-generation 10-year-old son rather bluntly put it the other day while watching Monti being celebrated on the italian news: "But mum, who was monti elected by?!"

what do I tell him: "actually by no one, but don't worry if this contradicts all democratic principles mummy has been teaching you - it's for your own good!" ??
Admittedly far away from perfect or brilliant is that I all along 17 years never managed to understand why the Italian people again and again elected the most immoral pompous self-assuming crook available anywhere. I mean, to me, electing Berlusconi equals cigarette -smoking
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  #32  
Old 16.11.2011, 00:50
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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About "That somebody was elected by the people is not an excuse for immoral and incapable and shabby government" I agree

About "what matters is that somebody tries to tackle the problems and at least solve a part of the mess" I agree in principle but I do not like to see a democratic country led by an un-elected leader; I fear this could be used by EU un-elected officials as a precedent to force more & more un-elected leaders on democracies. In fact I do not like the whole concept of EU un-elected officials (e.g. commissioners) acquiring ever more & more power.
The term of that interim prime-minster is clearly limited. This is what State President Giorgio Napolitano wanted. The present prime-ministers of Greece and Italy are caretaker-primeministers for an interim period, and in Italy there will be new elections.

You like to hear about a difference ? Spanish Prime Minister Zapatero, even if not guilty about the construction industry caused economics problem quite at the right time took the consequences and made it clear that he will not run again. He of course realizes that his successor from the Socialist Party most likely will lose out against the conservative leader. Mr Zapatero is his own caretaker, but nobody has doubts about his integrity as he has shown the understanding of democracy a bit lacking with those gents in Athens and Rome.
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  #33  
Old 16.11.2011, 18:15
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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Admittedly far away from perfect or brilliant is that I all along 17 years never managed to understand why the Italian people again and again elected the most immoral pompous self-assuming crook available anywhere. I mean, to me, electing Berlusconi equals cigarette -smoking
Because most Italians are like Berlusconi; "immoral pompous self-assuming crooks" so it is natural to vote someone like ones self.
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  #34  
Old 17.11.2011, 10:51
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Re: Italians in Switzerland must be happy now

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Because most Italians are like Berlusconi; "immoral pompous self-assuming crooks" so it is natural to vote someone like ones self.
Odd that you decided to live or work among them. Remember that the majority of Ticino's residents is at least partly of Italian descendance.

Or are you like Berlusconi, too?
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