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  #61  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:02
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

Think of everything in the world that would or could still be going on if people didn't protest. Voting rights for women, civil liberties, animal rights etc. Before you dismiss the protestors on occupy wall street, remember that while you may not agree with what they are protesting, they still should have a right to do so. I think that 30 years from now, the issue of income inequality is going to be the defining issue of this time period, no matter what side you are on.
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:02
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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It was my understanding that UC's are public properties.
They are 'public' universities, which are private entities funded by government money. If a legitimate representative of the university (read: one who has the authority to make this decision) decides the property cannot be used in this manner, then the police must enforce the university's private property rights.
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:03
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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Seems there is many more on this site that lean towards my way of thinking (against the protest) than yours though. Ill let you figure out what that means on who is "thick and immature"
You genuinely don't get it, do you?
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  #64  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:08
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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It was my understanding that UC's are public properties.
I suppose they are, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't 'peaceably assemble' there any way you see fit. The first amendment grants the right, which the government must defend, but the government also has a responsibility to take action if the assembly or occupation is to the detriment of the general public. Clearly both sides have a lot of rope to work with and there have been a lot of courtroom hours spent on who was in the right or wrong in 1st amendment cases.
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:15
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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Think of everything in the world that would or could still be going on if people didn't protest.
If the OWS folks were actually protesting something like the Patriot Act that would terrific. A horrible thing that should never have been allowed to happen. Nah, lets bitch about money- he has more and I want more. Do the protesters realize that the guvment could just call them all terrorists and throw them in jail without right to a lawyer or trial by their peers, for as long as they want? Huh? Dude, dooowner dude, we want money!

As for the American dream- I have a friend in Cincinnati who just bought a 7 bedroom house, beautiful thing with land, and a view on a hill, for 50K USD. His job? He drives a panel van around picking up scrap metal to sell. Where TF else in the world can you do that?!
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  #66  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:17
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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You genuinely don't get it, do you?

pretty certain it is going the other way around. In every post you have made in this thread you have been digging deeper and deeper, to then try and flip it around on me. It is a known discussion technique but rarely works if you attack someone with a stronger point than yours.

In all honesty look at what you have written in this thread:
No participation in the discussion
No points, facts, opinions discussed or questioned
no tolerance for other peoples opinions

So tell me exactly what I am genuinely not getting

How bout you move on and go discuss a bit more mundane issues. That should be right up your alley
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  #67  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:17
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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As for the American dream- I have a friend in Cincinnati who just bought a 7 bedroom house, beautiful thing with land, and a view on a hill, for 50K USD. His job? He drives a panel van around picking up scrap metal to sell. Where TF else in the world can you do that?!
Mexico... IF You have a US job of course...
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  #68  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:17
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

why where they occupying the university anyway?? as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with wall street, its just a bunch of muppet students protesting for protesting sake, they probably wouldn't be able to tell you what they where protesting about, think that's harsh??

my nephew came to stay with us recently, with his girlfriend, both students, both attended the student protests last year in the uk, against fee's, neither had a clue that they wouldn't have to pay anything back until there earned above a set limit, it wouldn't be above a low % of there salary, and would be written off after a set number of years anyway.
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:18
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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they where asked to move, they didn't, got sprayed, and moved, job done, whats the issue?? no one was hurt

on a side note, why are the police holding paint ball guns??
Those were probably rubber ball guns. They look and work the same, but hurt a lot worse. As long as you're not shooting someone directly in the face, you're not likely to injure anyone (bruises and welts excluded). They're another form of 'less-than-lethal' deterrence. The police probably had them in case the wind came up and made pepper spray ineffective.
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:23
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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Those were probably rubber ball guns. They look and work the same, but hurt a lot worse. As long as you're not shooting someone directly in the face, you're not likely to injure anyone (bruises and welts excluded). They're another form of 'less-than-lethal' deterrence. The police probably had them in case the wind came up and made pepper spray ineffective.
I've no idea what they were, but I thought they were painball guns too.

My thinking was:

1) they hurt, but not as bad as a rubber bullet and a lot lot less than a real one...

2) they mark the target, making them (the target) easy to identify if things get out of hand - i.e. arrest the ones with pain-ball splatter all over them

3) probably cheaper than rubber bullet guns

But that's all speculation on my part...
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:28
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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I've no idea what they were, but I thought they were painball guns too.

My thinking was:

1) they hurt, but not as bad as a rubber bullet and a lot lot less than a real one...

2) they mark the target, making them (the target) easy to identify if things get out of hand - i.e. arrest the ones with pain-ball splatter all over them

3) probably cheaper than rubber bullet guns

But that's all speculation on my part...

True. I didn't think of it like that...
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  #72  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:33
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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True. I didn't think of it like that...
Certainly make policing more fun - you can shoot without having to shoot to kill and spray people in the face with pepper spray with impunity...
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:34
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

No problem to elaborate and no perceived attack... just exchanging views here...

With regards to the American Dream (and you are probably aware), James Truslow Adams wrote, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth."

It has been an intertwined notion that hard work and sacrifice will allow ones children to attain a better life for their children, and that there SHOULD be jobs available that can provide an honest living, purchasing ones own house, raising a family and the pursuit of happiness (my words).

The disintegration of the middle class (some might term it 'the annihilation') and the massive job loss from manufacturing has changed everything. And the gap between rich and poor is growing enormously, making the US more and more like a banana republic with only haves and have nots. Just look at CEO pay vs rank and file and see how much bigger the gap has become.

So we come back to my earlier statement that you asked me to elaborate on. When people begin to despair over their situation and stop believing that the American Dream is attainable, then we are in a crisis situation.

Furthermore, when the 'have nots' start to feel that the system is rigged against them, they will start to feel that they need to take back what has been stolen and damn the consequences. Ever read Marx?

OK, so my undergrad degree was economics and history, so I have read a lot of econ/philosophy/history/political science etc... And IMO, it is a central role of gov't to keep a framework that allows for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." And don't get me wrong, I think capitalism is the best system we have. But it has become a bit unfettered over the last 30 years. Welfare and entitlement benefits are not the answer; and taxation is a complicated component, especially since taxes have been slashed so much over the past 40 years.

The wealthy do NOT want to go back to paying rates from the 50's-60s'. But we need to go back to a system that most people (80/20 rule?) deem fair or equitable. Or at least where the deck is stacked evenly for everybody.

I think people are very motivated by their perceived ability to find a job, make money and build a life. We need to get our system back into shape, where the majority at least feels that the system is not out to exploit them and in fact, rewards them for hard work and living within their means. Business and global corporates need to be motivated to produce, innovate, create shareholder value AND (here is a new notion), provide an environment that motivates employees to do their best and makes them feel proud about it... there are some firms like this. And these are usually the ones that provide health care and don't make massive layoffs at the first sign of profit warnings. But I will leave that for another long post.

Cheers,

fduvall

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On the other hand , the rich will (most likely) always be rich and at the current rate there will be enough rich people to go around. I dont get your point about the American dream ceasing ...care to elaborate? If anything in my opinion the American dream will grow again as small business are back on the rise, people are buying local again and the whole thing against corporate greed etc.


EDIT: just to be clear, I am asking for your elaborated opinion here, not stating you are wrong or anything like that. It seems some members like to go on the personal attack route when someone does not agree with them......
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Old 21.11.2011, 16:35
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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Certainly make policing more fun - you can shoot without having to shoot to kill and spray people in the face with pepper spray with impunity...

do they have to pay for the paintballs themselves, or do they get 100 per riot then have to pay for the top up's, I'd easily use 100 in the first couple of minutes
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  #75  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:38
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

What if the protesters were clever and decided to 'go Ghandi' on everyone; peaceably forcing the police into an unpopular action, in an effort to cause social change...? Foil hats, anyone?
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  #76  
Old 21.11.2011, 17:07
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

I'm all in favour of using appropriate measures to enforce the law, but there are other methods of enforcing laws without resorting to such tactics. Using pepper spray to subdue a violent and combative person is one thing, but if I went up to someone peacefully (if perhaps annoyingly) blocking my driveway and sprayed pepper spray directly into their faces I would be arrested and charged with assault or GBH and quite rightly too.

[cynicism on] But perhaps picking them up bodily (2 officer per student) and moving them to one side (or chucking them in the paddy wagon) would have been too much effort? [cynicism off]

I know the Police have a difficult and dangerous job, but I've worked with enough good coppers during my stint as an EMT to know that there are better ways of removing people than the UC Davis approach.
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Old 21.11.2011, 17:09
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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You genuinely don't get it, do you?
Good point, much better to call people 'C's to win an argument isn't it?

Good to see you back to your best form after your previous hissy fitting.
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Old 21.11.2011, 17:09
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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No problem to elaborate and no perceived attack... just exchanging views here...

With regards to the American Dream (and you are probably aware), James Truslow Adams wrote, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth."

It has been an intertwined notion that hard work and sacrifice will allow ones children to attain a better life for their children, and that there SHOULD be jobs available that can provide an honest living, purchasing ones own house, raising a family and the pursuit of happiness (my words).
Hard work and sacrifice alone are not enough. I could work hard digging ditches for all my life and never get ahead. Working smart, and making good decisions, and further, having the freedom to make decisions in one's best interests is what truly creates equality of opportunity.

Employers provide jobs to individuals who are capable of proving they are 'worth' the employer's money. There's no guarantee of jobs being available at any level to anyone.

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The disintegration of the middle class (some might term it 'the annihilation') and the massive job loss from manufacturing has changed everything. And the gap between rich and poor is growing enormously, making the US more and more like a banana republic with only haves and have nots. Just look at CEO pay vs rank and file and see how much bigger the gap has become.
There is no 'disintegration' of the middle class. Many middle class individuals are being suffocated by the very regulations designed to help them (and the poor) because they are at just the income level where they are penalized (taxed) by the government, but do not have the income structure nor means to avoid it, in the manner that the upper class do. The answer is less government intervention, not more.

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So we come back to my earlier statement that you asked me to elaborate on. When people begin to despair over their situation and stop believing that the American Dream is attainable, then we are in a crisis situation.

Furthermore, when the 'have nots' start to feel that the system is rigged against them, they will start to feel that they need to take back what has been stolen and damn the consequences. Ever read Marx?
I have read Marx, and he was wrong. The 'have-nots' can claim that something was 'stolen' from them until they are blue in the face- the 'haves' are not 'taking' anything from them. Usually it is the 'have-nots' that use their majority voting power to elect politicians that use the police power of the state to punitively tax the 'haves' and redistribute income to the 'have-nots' who then squander this largesse and crave more.

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OK, so my undergrad degree was economics and history, so I have read a lot of econ/philosophy/history/political science etc... And IMO, it is a central role of gov't to keep a framework that allows for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." And don't get me wrong, I think capitalism is the best system we have. But it has become a bit unfettered over the last 30 years. Welfare and entitlement benefits are not the answer; and taxation is a complicated component, especially since taxes have been slashed so much over the past 40 years.
I agree with most of what you are saying here: Government should build the 'framework,' but it is up to the individual to make it a house. What we have now is 'have-nots' demanding the house, at whatever cost, and then demanding it be repaired after they've soiled and broken it.

Maximum tax rates have been lowered, but taxes themselves have continued to rise. When the tax rates were high as they formerly were, there were many more tax breaks and loopholes than currently exist, and very few, if any individuals were paying these higher taxes. Now, there are less loopholes and breaks, but more people are paying the top rates.

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The wealthy do NOT want to go back to paying rates from the 50's-60s'. But we need to go back to a system that most people (80/20 rule?) deem fair or equitable. Or at least where the deck is stacked evenly for everybody.
'Fair' is a very subjective term; I would imagine no two people on EF would agree on the exact same definition of what fair is. Trying to create a system around such a vague term would be nearly impossible.

There is no way to stack the deck evenly for everyone. That would be akin to making it possible for a quadriplegic to play professional football; the only way that is possible is to lower standards all around until the least capable person qualifies. The best a system can do is to not deny opportunity to an individual based on circumstances like gender, age, religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc.

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I think people are very motivated by their perceived ability to find a job, make money and build a life. We need to get our system back into shape, where the majority at least feels that the system is not out to exploit them and in fact, rewards them for hard work and living within their means. Business and global corporates need to be motivated to produce, innovate, create shareholder value AND (here is a new notion), provide an environment that motivates employees to do their best and makes them feel proud about it... there are some firms like this. And these are usually the ones that provide health care and don't make massive layoffs at the first sign of profit warnings. But I will leave that for another long post.

Cheers,

fduvall
I agree, but from a different perspective. I would say that the 'majority' needs to become better informed in regards to how economies function, and how their decisions impact their economic opportunities and outcomes. Much of the economic disparity in countries like the US is more perceptual than real, and many of the economic problems of the 'have nots' are self-inflicted.

I've asked this before- Why do we glorify the kid who goes to school, works hard, gets a scholarship to a great college, and goes on to be a millionaire professional athlete, but villify the kid who does much the same thing, but goes on to be a millionaire corporate CEO? Who creates more jobs, in and of themselves- the athlete or the CEO?
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Old 21.11.2011, 17:10
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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I'm all in favour of using appropriate measures to enforce the law, but there are other methods of enforcing laws without resorting to such tactics. Using pepper spray to subdue a violent and combative person is one thing, but if I went up to someone peacefully (if perhaps annoyingly) blocking my driveway and sprayed pepper spray directly into their faces I would be arrested and charged with assault or GBH and quite rightly too.

[cynicism on] But perhaps picking them up bodily (2 officer per student) and moving them to one side (or chucking them in the paddy wagon) would have been too much effort? [cynicism off]

I know the Police have a difficult and dangerous job, but I've worked with enough good coppers during my stint as an EMT to know that there are better ways of removing people than the UC Davis approach.

In the articles it says:
They were warned several times that an action like this would resort to the pepperspray. also if you look at the photos, they are dragging them away but they are interlocked.....making it nearly impossible and then there would certainly be "assault charges" etc

Also anyone notice how there was several dozen in the beginning, boiling down to just a few that refused to leave and got sprayed?
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Old 21.11.2011, 17:34
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Re: Police Pepper-Spray Seated Protesters At UC Davis

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Think of everything in the world that would or could still be going on if people didn't protest. Voting rights for women, civil liberties, animal rights etc. Before you dismiss the protestors on occupy wall street, remember that while you may not agree with what they are protesting, they still should have a right to do so. I think that 30 years from now, the issue of income inequality is going to be the defining issue of this time period, no matter what side you are on.
I agree, civil disobedience has its purpose in an open and free society. Much has been won because individuals stood up for their beliefs, rights, etc.

However, the 'issue of income inequality' has been one of the defining issues for the entire history of mankind; since one caveman was able to kill a bigger animal and feed his family/tribe/clan more than another, there has been 'income inequality.' It is nothing new, not even in the last 2 or 3 millenia. The only way for there to be income equality is for everyone to have the same abilities as a Michael Jordan, Donald Trump, Warren Buffett, etc. Since that's not possible, the only other way is to punish the Micheal Jordans, Donald Trumps, and Warren Buffetts for being successful and take all their money until their income is equal to the lowliest trash man or janitor.
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