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  #21  
Old 20.11.2011, 10:06
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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We can't say what majority of those women like or dislike..yet we keep projecting our cultural values on them. And what if they do like it, does that make them lesser than us?

I can't make a comment on covering eyes, though I certainly have a personal opinion about this, it would be hard for me. But.

Just knowing, that cultures vary in what they consider important, the level of restriction they proudly subject themselves to, personal discipline, sacrifice, religious reasons, respect..I think the way we were raised and the freedom (are we really that much more free than those who live over there..spiritually) we so often take for granted (even me from nutty regime, women were strong) shouldn't make us not understand and disrespect the cultural conditioning and values that women in other cultures have.
MUsicchick, I agree totally. that we should respect values different from our own.
However, in the Saudi case, the reason we don't know whether the women like or dislike this tabled regulation is that the women are not allowed to give any opinion themselves. So, while I have total respect for these women, I remain vocally opposed to the repressive lifestyle that is forced upon them. If the women were all choosing to cover up completely without there being any imposed law or pressure to do so, I would have no objection.
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  #22  
Old 20.11.2011, 10:24
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Many women embrace and adore this way of life.
Why the need for religious police enforcing rules such as "no driving" or "cover up" then?
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  #23  
Old 20.11.2011, 10:47
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Why the need for religious police enforcing rules such as "no driving" or "cover up" then?
Because that is part of the national political system in Saudi - and by allowing this faction to have some power, it helps keep the peace and lets the Saudi "royalty" stay in power ( and oil).
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Old 20.11.2011, 11:16
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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If the women were all choosing to cover up completely without there being any imposed law or pressure to do so, I would have no objection.
Agreed biff. I grew up in a multi cultural society where I have muslim friends back in school.

A muslim classmate of mine was pretty "wild" - I use this term loosely but she wasnt as religious as her other muslim classmates ie: she didnt drink but she didnt cover her hair or dress conservatively.

After one term break, she came back to school fully dressed in the traditional headscarf etc. Everyone was shocked but she said that she's decided to do so by her own choice. I respect that and even admire her decision to embrace the stricter side of the religion.

However, in this case, the argument of the west imposing its cultural views on women who "proudly" subject themselves to such customs is rubbish and quite frankly ignorant. These women dont know any better and arent given the choice due to society's pressures of the men around them. Imagine growing up in such a strict society and being told from birth that you have to do this, adhere to that. You are not given the chance to explore the world and see whats out there (the Amish have rumspringa for their youth). If you dont, you've disgraced the family and god forbid, be subjected to medival forms of punishment.

Respecting other peoples culture is very important but I dont agree that women should be punished for gifts that they are born with. The eyes thing is really taking the piss. Stop using religion as an excuse, and stop taking it to the extreme.
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  #25  
Old 20.11.2011, 11:25
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Because that is part of the national political system in Saudi - and by allowing this faction to have some power, it helps keep the peace and lets the Saudi "royalty" stay in power ( and oil).
D'uh, obviously. I was responding to the "that' what women really want" brigade.
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  #26  
Old 20.11.2011, 11:31
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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We can't say what majority of those women like or dislike..yet we keep projecting our cultural values on them. And what if they do like it, does that make them lesser than us?

I can't make a comment on covering eyes, though I certainly have a personal opinion about this, it would be hard for me. But.

Just knowing, that cultures vary in what they consider important, the level of restriction they proudly subject themselves to, personal discipline, sacrifice, religious reasons, respect..I think the way we were raised and the freedom (are we really that much more free than those who live over there..spiritually) we so often take for granted (even me from nutty regime, women were strong) shouldn't make us not understand and disrespect the cultural conditioning and values that women in other cultures have.
Ever been on a flight out of Saudi? When it takes off there are a lot of ladies completely covered up.
Before it lands there are a lot of ladies in tight jeans & tops (not all of course)

Must be some sort of relativity phenomenom
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Old 20.11.2011, 11:32
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Why the need for religious police enforcing rules such as "no driving" or "cover up" then?
It is for the poor souls who get tempted...
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Old 20.11.2011, 11:35
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Ever been on a flight out of Saudi? When it takes off there are a lot of ladies completely covered up.
Before it lands there are a lot of ladies in tight jeans & tops (not all of course)

Must be some sort of relativity phenomenom
Yes I have. I did the Riyadh to Frankfurt flight many times. Going the other way from Frankfurt to Riyadh, the women would get on somewhat
clothed in a Western way and land with the burka and black outfit.
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  #29  
Old 20.11.2011, 11:44
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Why the need for religious police enforcing rules such as "no driving" or "cover up" then?
Exactly. If all these women choose to live this life, then laws and enforcement shouldn't be required.

It makes me sick to see basic human rights abused in such a way. Saudi, Yemen, Pakistan, and Afghanistan are probably the worst. In many areas women are treated no better than animals.
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  #30  
Old 20.11.2011, 11:55
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Exactly. If all these women choose to live this life, then laws and enforcement shouldn't be required.

It makes me sick to see basic human rights abused in such a way. Saudi, Yemen, Pakistan, and Afghanistan are probably the worst. In many areas women are treated no better than animals.
Exactly - Islam is practiced inthrough out the world in less rigid conditions. Its a peaceful and beautiful religion but it just takes a few cuckoos to take it to the extreme, hypocrites to hide behind the name of religion and give it a bad name - just like any other religion.
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  #31  
Old 20.11.2011, 12:40
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Exactly - Islam is practiced inthrough out the world in less rigid conditions. Its a peaceful and beautiful religion but it just takes a few cuckoos to take it to the extreme, hypocrites to hide behind the name of religion and give it a bad name - just like any other religion.
Great discussion here. Regarding the notion of laws versus choice, there's also the very important aspect of familial and social pressure. That is to say: even in lands where a hijab or burka is not legislated, it is often not worn by choice but rather due to being forced by male relatives. Actually, in some cases, it's female relatives as well.

For those interested in this topic, I recently read a fascinating book called "In the Land of Invisible Women". It's an older book that chronicles a 2 year stint of a Canadian/American female doctor who takes a contract to work in a renowned hospital in Saudi Arabia. She is muslim herself and the book explores her observations and own unease with some of what she experiences and see. It can be a bit preachy in parts, but overall I found it quite a fascinating read. Not sure if/where it could be bought in CH, but I picked it up for my kindle so it's available on Amazon.
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  #32  
Old 20.11.2011, 13:16
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Why the need for religious police enforcing rules such as "no driving" or "cover up" then?
Not sure I see your point. I embrace a culture where it's not okay to steal. Doesn't mean we don't need police to deal with those who do.
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  #33  
Old 20.11.2011, 13:22
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

The sin is in the men's eyes then why women should restrict, or why can't they give some power to women like allow her to slap/fine heavily so as to give him a chance to washed out his evil desire...but who are the law makers....
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  #34  
Old 20.11.2011, 13:23
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

I will also add some personal thoughts here too. Whilst I have many an issue with the treatment of women in the Middle East and actually, here in Switzerland, I think it's dangerous to project these values on others as an outsider.

Where I see incredible strength in the Middle East as a whole is in family values. It's a generalization, I know, but I see most problems in society today relating to a breakdown in the family unit. When I look at my family and friends in the Middle East, there is such an intense love and respect for family. Family is at the heart of everything. This is something I don't see to the same extent in the westernized world.

Oh, if I could only create my perfect world that blends my favorite attributes from around the globe ;p
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Old 20.11.2011, 13:36
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I will also add some personal thoughts here too. Whilst I have many an issue with the treatment of women in the Middle East and actually, here in Switzerland, I think it's dangerous to project these values on others as an outsider.

Where I see incredible strength in the Middle East as a whole is in family values. It's a generalization, I know, but I see most problems in society today relating to a breakdown in the family unit. When I look at my family and friends in the Middle East, there is such an intense love and respect for family. Family is at the heart of everything. This is something I don't see to the same extent in the westernized world.

Oh, if I could only create my perfect world that blends my favorite attributes from around the globe ;p

Some family. Were a father kills his daughter to preserve the family honor....
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Old 20.11.2011, 13:38
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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In 2002, the committee refused to allow female students out of a burning school in the holy city of Mecca because they were not wearing correct head cover. The decision is thought to have contributed to the high death toll of 15.
Honestly whether women want to be covered up or not, it's stories like this that gets me so angry that I have no words for it. Mind you, this was 2002, not 1102!! Women burned to death because they couldn't cover up properly! Where, I ask you, are the human rights activists, where is Amnesty International? Where are all the good politicians from the west who so much want to enforce human rights in every country?

Not mentioning that women in Muslim countries die from minor injuries or illnesses because they are not allowed to be treated by a male doctor and on the other hand women are not allowed to go to medical school to become a doctor (mostly not allowed at any school).
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Old 20.11.2011, 13:44
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Great discussion here. Regarding the notion of laws versus choice, there's also the very important aspect of familial and social pressure. That is to say: even in lands where a hijab or burka is not legislated, it is often not worn by choice but rather due to being forced by male relatives. Actually, in some cases, it's female relatives as well.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-1432820.html#

A long tail of security reasons..
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Old 20.11.2011, 13:53
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Not mentioning that women in some Muslim countries die from minor injuries or illnesses because they are not allowed to be treated by a male doctor and on the other hand women are not allowed to go to medical school to become a doctor (mostly not allowed at any school).
I had to fix this because while I was in a Muslim country I did have a male gynecologist. So not all Muslim countries are like that.
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  #39  
Old 20.11.2011, 14:18
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Honestly whether women want to be covered up or not, it's stories like this that gets me so angry that I have no words for it. Mind you, this was 2002, not 1102!! Women burned to death because they couldn't cover up properly! Where, I ask you, are the human rights activists, where is Amnesty International? Where are all the good politicians from the west who so much want to enforce human rights in every country?

Not mentioning that women in Muslim countries die from minor injuries or illnesses because they are not allowed to be treated by a male doctor and on the other hand women are not allowed to go to medical school to become a doctor (mostly not allowed at any school).



Tell me more about Year 1102 I may not live that long
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Old 20.11.2011, 14:23
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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However, in the Saudi case, the reason we don't know whether the women like or dislike this tabled regulation is that the women are not allowed to give any opinion themselves.
Yeah, my point was not dispute the law they are trying to impose, since as I wrote I find it absurd and wouldn't personally live under these conditions and feel bad for girls who have to put up with it. Am I going to think all women want to be free the way we are? No. Do I think all of them would be happy with it? Of course not. Women should be given the choice for sure. I do think however, that just simply saying "to hell with this" since we will teach those girls what they need to crave is actually....uhmm...not as clear cut.

I happen to teach female students from there, and I know for sure, that loads of them do not ask us to fight for their freedom and not because they wouldn't know any better. I think my beef was with trying to pretend we know. We don't. I am not even sure if we fully understand.

Our idea of freedom is certainly different, not worse nor better.

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However, in this case, the argument of the west imposing its cultural views on women who "proudly" subject themselves to such customs is rubbish and quite frankly ignorant. These women dont know any better...
And we do.. ?

That was my point.

Not trying to defend movement that restricts female rights and basically pushes life as we see it, hundreds of years back. I dislike any freedom and human rights restrictions, I have had a long practice in adjusting trying to have a remnant of a dignified life under restricted conditions myself.

All I was trying to say, which I think freedom fighters on autopilot didn't notice, was we should tread carefully when cultural beliefs in terms of what we see as freedom and what other cultures see as freedom clash. Maybe a matter of semantics, vocab, paying respect, not falling for absolute statements, who knows.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 20.11.2011 at 14:33.
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