Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:17
little_isabella's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,094
Groaned at 18 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,387 Times in 550 Posts
little_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Before you call someone ignorant you should check the facts - Families murdering their female members are not rare in the middle east.
Not that Wiki is exactly a credible source but your source shows what I said - it's rare.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:24
little_isabella's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,094
Groaned at 18 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,387 Times in 550 Posts
little_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Iran; this is the place
where by law they can still stone people to death,
execute gays by hanging from cranes,
over 100 journalists jailed since the 2009 elections.

If you think honour killings are rare in Iran then I suggest you do some research. It is hard to get current figures but, for example, in 2003, it was reported that on average one woman was killed per day in the province of Ilam. The towns Shirvan and Chardoval top the list with 170 honour killings, followed by Darreh Shar with 165, Abadan with 100, Ilam with 50, Mehran with 45 and Ivan with 30.
Again, rare if you look at this within the entire Iranian population. In Iran, family is immensely important and everything revolves around the family unit from daily life to celebrations. I'd love to see your sources though. Mine is personal experience when I say the family unit is everything to Iranians, so I don't purport to represent anything scientific with that comment, nor have I at any point.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:31
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: basel
Posts: 2,358
Groaned at 24 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,426 Times in 1,164 Posts
biff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond reputebiff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Again, rare if you look at this within the entire Iranian population. In Iran, family is immensely important and everything revolves around the family unit from daily life to celebrations. I'd love to see your sources though. Mine is personal experience when I say the family unit is everything to Iranians, so I don't purport to represent anything scientific with that comment, nor have I at any point.
I don't consider the over 500 killings mentioned by Marton, to be a "rare " occurance.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank biff for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:34
little_isabella's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,094
Groaned at 18 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,387 Times in 550 Posts
little_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post


Seriously. This undermines anything else you've said in this thread, unless you can explain convincingly how Switzerland is more oppressive to women than anywhere else.
I can't as I haven't lived "everywhere else" in the world. I don't know that Switzerland is more oppressive to women than anywhere else. If I go by the media, of course it isn't. But for me, it has been. This has been the case compared with the 7 countries where I've lived (visited many more but not much I can comment on from a visit).

I had a pretty awful experience in Switzerland that threatened my life and my family - all because I'm a woman. And no, that's not my subjective assessment but a legal one too.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:35
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,435 Times in 10,578 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

This is a great debate, let's keep it civil, lasting and void of fast words..

Quote:
View Post
“East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.”
You know, this made me think.

If you are raised here from birth or early childhood, in a Muslim family that adheres to cultural heritage, exposed to our ideas on personal freedom, still valuing what's valid out there in your home culture, living it and seeing the perks and hindrances of both worlds..yet you still put your home culture to be more important and you want to go back, says something. After being able to evaluate and live in both cultures..

I wouldn't call it confusion, or not knowing about life...I wouldn't think there is some extreme conditioning here since home and school are two separate environments, traditionally in CH, aren't they. There is enough exposure of what the norm is here to persuade anyone who would want to disagree with their home principles.

I wouldn't say I agree with their principles in order to adopt them. I would be willing to try them, for sure, though, just to give my later opinion more weight, no matter of the fact I know I would have personally refuse them, and to see where their humility comes from. But I wouldn't dismiss none of it in a way that is too fast or puts a quality tag or lack there of, more, on it.

It is great to teach in a place where opinions are still shared, not being worried about PC nivelization of all possible cultural differences but people had their exposure to sharing in a non offensive way. In a place where most of the folks I know are at least bicultural. So, yes, many times, most times in my every day life, East and West are quite mixed. You cannot separate it these days, can you.

This has nothing to do with me disliking the actual rule we are talking about though, personally.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein

Last edited by MusicChick; 20.11.2011 at 23:15.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:37
little_isabella's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,094
Groaned at 18 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,387 Times in 550 Posts
little_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Aside from whether I agree or disagree with this statement, since we are all entitiled to our own opinions, I will say that, every single day I wake up, I am most grateful to have been born and now live in countries where I am free to:

1) Cover up my whole body if I want to
2) Wear the skimpiest outfits if I wish to wear them
3) Leave said country if I find it oppressive without the need to beg for permission from my father, brother, or husband if I had one
4) Not being whipped, stoned to death, hanged, or decapitated for any of the above.
Agree with all four points - including Switzerland. But in Switzerland, I've also experienced horrific treatment solely due to being a woman.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:45
Amaras's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Armenia
Posts: 128
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts
Amaras has earned some respectAmaras has earned some respect
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Iran; this is the place
where by law they can still stone people to death,
execute gays by hanging from cranes,
over 100 journalists jailed since the 2009 elections.

If you think honour killings are rare in Iran then I suggest you do some research. It is hard to get current figures but, for example, in 2003, it was reported that on average one woman was killed per day in the province of Ilam. The towns Shirvan and Chardoval top the list with 170 honour killings, followed by Darreh Shar with 165, Abadan with 100, Ilam with 50, Mehran with 45 and Ivan with 30.
They also hang child rapists, don't they?

Honor killing have nothing to do with Islam. It happens sometime even in Christian villages over there.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:55
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,913
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,191 Times in 3,404 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
I've also experienced horrific treatment solely due to being a > ------ <
Fill in as you see fit

Last edited by MusicChick; 20.11.2011 at 19:56. Reason: fixed quote
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 20.11.2011, 19:55
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
They also hang child rapists, don't they?

Honor killing have nothing to do with Islam. It happens sometime even in Christian villages over there.
Yes, and in any thread related to Islam, mulsims and middle east, you hear a lot of opinions but very little true knowledge about the topic.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 20.11.2011, 20:08
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 642
Groaned at 219 Times in 140 Posts
Thanked 2,165 Times in 1,024 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
I can't as I haven't lived "everywhere else" in the world. I don't know that Switzerland is more oppressive to women than anywhere else. If I go by the media, of course it isn't. But for me, it has been. This has been the case compared with the 7 countries where I've lived (visited many more but not much I can comment on from a visit).

I had a pretty awful experience in Switzerland that threatened my life and my family - all because I'm a woman. And no, that's not my subjective assessment but a legal one too.
You've hinted at this experience here without giving details - if you can - could you please provide detail or possibly link to another post you've made which does ?
thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 20.11.2011, 20:41
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,350
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post

And we do.. ?

That was my point.

Not trying to defend movement that restricts female rights and basically pushes life as we see it, hundreds of years back. I dislike any freedom and human rights restrictions, I have had a long practice in adjusting trying to have a remnant of a dignified life under restricted conditions myself.

All I was trying to say, which I think freedom fighters on autopilot didn't notice, was we should tread carefully when cultural beliefs in terms of what we see as freedom and what other cultures see as freedom clash. Maybe a matter of semantics, vocab, paying respect, not falling for absolute statements, who knows.
I had to laugh at that comment.

I respect all aspects of the Islam religion. Dont eat pork, must eat Halal, must pray facing East X number of times a day, must cover up: all fine by me.

But when it comes to voting, the right to go to school, the right to voice your opinion, the simple right to drive, and not be stoned to death for talking to a fellow human being, just because he is male - when its is ok to leer at other women and not have a say when he takes more than 1 wife - do we know better?

The answer is an unequivocal, resounding YES!

Freedom clash my behind. Show me the Koran where it says that women must be repressed and treated like slaves and I will gladly shut up.
__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.

Last edited by summerrain; 20.11.2011 at 20:56.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank summerrain for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 20.11.2011, 21:04
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,435 Times in 10,578 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
But when it comes to voting, the right to go to school, the right to voice your opinion, the simple right to drive, and not be stoned to death for talking to a fellow human being, just because he is male - when he is ok to perv at other women and take 5 wives, do we know better?
Oh, I agree with how horribly cruel things can be. But isn't there is as much cruelty in our culture as it is in theirs, by the way. No seal of official authority, yet crap happens.

People do know, let's not kid ourselves. Us campaigning about it our loud western style won't change the situ, it will merely make us feel good about ourselves. Showing understanding (I am not saying tolerance to violence at all, btw) to complexity of how they got where they are might.

I simply refuse to put my idea of personal freedom higher than the girls' who were said to not know any better
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 20.11.2011, 21:17
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,350
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Oh, I agree with how horribly cruel things can be. But isn't there is as much cruelty in our culture as it is in theirs, by the way. No seal of official authority, yet crap happens.

People do know, let's not kid ourselves. Us campaigning about it our loud western style won't change the situ, it will merely make us feel good about ourselves. Showing understanding (I am not saying tolerance to violence at all, btw) to complexity of how they got where they are might.

I simply refuse to put my idea of personal freedom higher than the girls' who were said to not know any better
No one is campaigning here.

Its called having an opinion. I am never that idealistic to think that the situation about women in many parts of the Middle East is ever going to change because it has been so deeply entrenched. And I definitely dont know what you mean by "feel good about ourselves". If its what I think you're trying to say (ie: we feel superior with our Western attitudes), then it is quite frankly offensive.

I feel outrage and sadness at that link in the original post that women have to be so repressed like that, under the guise of a religion which is supposed to be peaceful - never superior.

If you cant tell the difference between girls who have been brought up under the Islam religion in a society where they are allowed to go to school, drive, have male friends but choose to adhere to the stricter code like covering up etc, versus girls brought up under the same religion but with repression, then I see no point in discussing this any further.

PS: of course there is much cruelty in our culture as any where in the world. The fact that we have recourse, the choice to bring our perpetrator to justice makes a whole lot of difference.
__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank summerrain for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 20.11.2011, 21:25
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Oh, I agree with how horribly cruel things can be. But isn't there is as much cruelty in our culture as it is in theirs, by the way. No seal of official authority, yet crap happens.

People do know, let's not kid ourselves. Us campaigning about it our loud western style won't change the situ, it will merely make us feel good about ourselves. Showing understanding (I am not saying tolerance to violence at all, btw) to complexity of how they got where they are might.

I simply refuse to put my idea of personal freedom higher than the girls' who were said to not know any better
Do you really thing those girls don't know any better? They see shows on TV, magasines, etc. Some of the most popular Soap showed in Arabic countries are from Turkey. Did you meet some Saudi girls outside of SA? I met some I thought they were prostitutes because of their dressing. Until they told me they were in vacation from SA. I had some students from Iran who told me how unhappy Iranian girls were about their country and how things are done there.

Of course, some people are scared of changes. Some people prefer to keep things the way it is not because they like it but because they don't know any better and are scared.

I don't know any women who is happy to be repressed. NONE.

They may be scared to say it out loud, they may have no words and voice to express it. This is why women who have freedom to live and take decisions should stand up for them and help them to change the situation.

My Afghani friends are looking at their countries and cry their souls out to see how their families and friends are living. Do you think they live like that by choice? I felt to see anyone from that country living like that out of the country. My friends families have happy, smilling, open, pretty, free people. People wearing colors, dancing, singing and enjoying life, education and everything else you enjoy too.

Who are we to judge? Well, we are people who believe in equality and humans rights. Religion and culture have nothing to do with it. Arab culture isn't a culture of oppression. Crazy extremists with power are the one to blame. It is not because someone never saw anything else before that it should stay that way.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #75  
Old 20.11.2011, 21:39
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,435 Times in 10,578 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post

However, in this case, the argument of the west imposing its cultural views on women who "proudly" subject themselves to such customs is rubbish and quite frankly ignorant. These women dont know any better and arent given the choice due to society's pressures of the men around them.
Again, this was the thought I had a problem with. Since my experience is that they know way more than we realize, or can grasp, just changing the ways there is not as easy as here, nor the style to go about it.

We all have opinions on cruelty, sure thang. Mine in fact as I stated does not vary from the ones that were posted here. I only think we need to realize that if there are ways to influence lives there, it won't be probably efficient with rhetorics we are used to using here. The whole concept of "personal freedom" is a concept thoroughly culturally conditioned and has to be approached as such, should any change actually be efficient there. Maybe my head is all already jumping steps, since granted that there is no person I know who would not condemn the crimes that are happening there. So, to actually discuss if the proposal is meaningful or not, or do we disagree or not is pointless for me, since we all disagree with it, innit.

I am only musing over the way we deliver our thoughts. And "these women don't know any better" sounded awfully arrogant to me. Bah.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 20.11.2011, 22:53
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,350
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
I am only musing over the way we deliver our thoughts. And "these women don't know any better" sounded awfully arrogant to me. Bah.
And this sounds bloody arrogant, know-it-all, condescending and patronising to me. You say potato, I say potato.

Quote:
View Post
People do know, let's not kid ourselves. Us campaigning about it our loud western style won't change the situ, it will merely make us feel good about ourselves. Showing understanding (I am not saying tolerance to violence at all, btw) to complexity of how they got where they are might.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank summerrain for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 20.11.2011, 22:58
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: -
Posts: 1,640
Groaned at 26 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 2,932 Times in 1,202 Posts
Russkov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Again, rare if you look at this within the entire Iranian population. In Iran, family is immensely important and everything revolves around the family unit from daily life to celebrations.
There's a flipside to that. The family unit is good and all, but it can also be a tool of oppression and entrapment. I've seen people flourish when liberated from abusive families or spouses. We shouldn't see the fact that we have a choice to not be attached at the heel to our families and that we encourage individualism as something negative. "Everything revolves around the family?" Sounds tiring.

A close knit family is great in theory, unless your family sucks. And an unfortunately large number do.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Russkov for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 20.11.2011, 23:33
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,320
Groaned at 401 Times in 327 Posts
Thanked 17,324 Times in 8,769 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
Again, this was the thought I had a problem with. Since my experience is that they know way more than we realize, or can grasp, just changing the ways there is not as easy as here, nor the style to go about it.


I am only musing over the way we deliver our thoughts. And "these women don't know any better" sounded awfully arrogant to me. Bah.
I'm with you, MusicChick. In fact, we could be surprised about the level of erudition that people cultivate over there, as the info is not free, one should grab it every time possible. Oppresive societies don't mean people don't know any better, rather they can't openly fight the regime.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 21.11.2011, 03:45
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,354
Groaned at 363 Times in 293 Posts
Thanked 23,687 Times in 8,573 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Honestly, I find it very strange that this discussion takes place at all. I do not look down on other cultures or try to convince everyone of my cultural values. But I think some people use the term "culture" very loosely here:
- Is slavery a cultural value?
- Was Apartheid a cultural value?

I think there are a couple of values that are global and completely independent from religion, gender, skin color, language or whatever else. Some relatively smart people once even tried to write those values down...

Article one of the declaration of human rights:

Quote:
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
While yes, it took a long time to have this equality in the west (at least formally as I do not think we will ever manage to get rid of all discrimination no matter if its gender, race or religion...). But honestly: Saudi Arabia is one of the countries which is the furthest away from a good human rights record. There are some worse countries in conflict zones, but I cannot come up with a stable dictatorship that has so clear and formalized discrimination as they do. The entire country is designed to discriminate - you have to have the right gender and religion to be free. Some people decide to give up their freedom to some extent - say foreign workers going there for good money. But most - aka "women" - never had a choice or anything near equal rights. "It's a tradition" is a rubbish argument - Traditions are great and all women should have the freedom to dress as traditional as they want. But enforcing clothing styles is oppression, not tradition.

Not sure why some people started discussing Iran, but it is just another country with a terrible record. There are massive differences in the various types of Islam, but both countries are in their ways radical. You don't even need to go all the way to honor killings. Forced marriages, women only allowed to work if the husband approves it and similar is already more than enough for me to object. Basing this oppression on religion and leaders "by the grace of God" is simply medieval.

I do not see at all a reason why people cannot value human rights as well as their religion. Same goes btw for all other religions, not only Muslims.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 21.11.2011, 07:57
little_isabella's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,094
Groaned at 18 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,387 Times in 550 Posts
little_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Quote:
View Post
There's a flipside to that. The family unit is good and all, but it can also be a tool of oppression and entrapment. I've seen people flourish when liberated from abusive families or spouses. We shouldn't see the fact that we have a choice to not be attached at the heel to our families and that we encourage individualism as something negative. "Everything revolves around the family?" Sounds tiring.

A close knit family is great in theory, unless your family sucks. And an unfortunately large number do.
For some of us, it's not "tiring" at all. It's liberating.

How is it that strong family values are somehow synonymous with abuse, lack of individualism and abnormal attachment? Did you seriously think that my comments about strong family values and a culture that is centered on a solid family unit were based on the above attributes?

Iran has a terrible history. Afghanistan has a terrible history. The US has a terrible history. There is oppression of many kinds all around the world. But that does not mean that in a country where women have less personal freedoms such as showing their bodies and dressing at will, or needing a husband's permission for specific choices - they are not part of a loving family unit that provides support and is still dedicated to their needs and the needs of the child. I think the idea that certain limitations in choice preclude a tight-knit family is part a westernized fallacy.

On top of that, I not only see this mentality in those living in the Middle East, but also those who now live in westernized countries.

Anyone can say it's no different here in Switzerland or anywhere else in the world. But my experience is that the family unit is especially valued in many parts of the Middle East, particularly in Iran.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Women in Saudi Arabia 'to vote and run in elections' Castro International affairs/politics 28 29.09.2011 10:54
renovation question: awesome walls, do we really have to cover them in insulation? TammieE Housing in general 14 12.08.2011 19:46
May the fourth be with you! miniMia Jokes/funnies 5 06.05.2011 00:15
With your advice, I may be moving to Switzerland! FilmFlyLA Introductions 5 18.10.2010 05:28
Gadhafi hosts Italian women, tries to convert them Treverus International affairs/politics 3 18.11.2009 23:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0