.....Iran has a terrible history. Afghanistan has a terrible history. The US has a terrible history. There is oppression of many kinds all around the world.....
Now on that note---is there any demographic that has had a good history?
On the whole, I think the human race is still developing (yes there's still a way to go), but if you look at any group of individuals in the past, they look bad--damn cavemen!.
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them
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"It's a tradition" is a rubbish argument - Traditions are great and all women should have the freedom to dress as traditional as they want. But enforcing clothing styles is oppression, not tradition.
For me, a tradition should preserve something worth preserving. Something that positively impacts the majority of society.
And sadly, far too many laws touted as "tradition" don't fit that bill.
Now on that note---is there any demographic that has had a good history?
On the whole, I think the human race is still developing (yes there's still a way to go), but if you look at any group of individuals in the past, they look bad--damn cavemen!.
But..but...cavemen are so hot. Especially a modern one like this:
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For some of us, it's not "tiring" at all. It's liberating.
How is it that strong family values are somehow synonymous with abuse, lack of individualism and abnormal attachment? Did you seriously think that my comments about strong family values and a culture that is centered on a solid family unit were based on the above attributes?
Iran has a terrible history. Afghanistan has a terrible history. The US has a terrible history. There is oppression of many kinds all around the world. But that does not mean that in a country where women have less personal freedoms such as showing their bodies and dressing at will, or needing a husband's permission for specific choices - they are not part of a loving family unit that provides support and is still dedicated to their needs and the needs of the child. I think the idea that certain limitations in choice preclude a tight-knit family is part a westernized fallacy.
On top of that, I not only see this mentality in those living in the Middle East, but also those who now live in westernized countries.
Anyone can say it's no different here in Switzerland or anywhere else in the world. But my experience is that the family unit is especially valued in many parts of the Middle East, particularly in Iran.
"anyone can" indeed. BUt I think you are being selctive in your arguments. On the one hand you are dismissing statistics given (on Iran) but on the other, you are yusing your own one personal expereince in Switzerland to generalise about conditions throughout the world, along with the vagueness of that situation and your nonanswering of the query as to which other countries you have actually lived in (to suppsrt your argument.) That makes it hard to keep this debate at an objective, rational level.
Yes, the family unit is valued throughout the world. But I agree with an earlier poster, that the values within any family unit can greatly differ between warm, tolerant and supportive, to cruel, abusive and totally repressive.
"anyone can" indeed. BUt I think you are being selctive in your arguments. On the one hand you are dismissing statistics given (on Iran) but on the other, you are yusing your own one personal expereince in Switzerland to generalise about conditions throughout the world, along with the vagueness of that situation and your nonanswering of the query as to which other countries you have actually lived in (to suppsrt your argument.) That makes it hard to keep this debate at an objective, rational level.
Yes, the family unit is valued throughout the world. But I agree with an earlier poster, that the values within any family unit can greatly differ between warm, tolerant and supportive, to cruel, abusive and totally repressive.
Don't confuse dismissal of statistics with a different interpretation. I'd like to see sources but still, I acknowledge them. I just don't interpret them as a sweeping problem. I also don't see such statistics as proving that the family unit isn't strong.
Family unit values differ a great deal. Of course. Coming from a voluntary background in crisis work and abuse and having close friends who are survivors of abuse, I unfortunately agree. :/
I'm not generalizing Switzerland for everyone - I very specifically said that in my experience, it's the most oppressive place I've lived. I'm not giving details of my personal situation (I only answered so the original question would not seem ignored) because it involved other people and legal issues. It's incredibly personal and painful so I'm not going to share it online. I don't need or want to prove anything because in reality, I don't think any country can be proven as being the most or least oppressive. Let's be realistic here. I'm only sharing that this is my experience.
I think the idea that certain limitations in choice preclude a tight-knit family is part a westernized fallacy.
I don't doubt that they preclude it at all. In fact, they can make a tight-knit family just that much tighter. Like tight hands that wrap around your throat when you disobey your family or try to run away with few possibilities of help from the law.
And of course these things happen everywhere, but I have a hard time looking past all the institutionalized human rights abuses in these countries just because they maybe value the family more than we do. You don't have to think we're inherently superior, a short time ago we weren't that much better and are still improving, but we worked hard as a culture to get where we are and 99% of women living here would agree that the grass is truly greener on the other side.
I don't doubt that they preclude it at all. In fact, they can make a tight-knit family just that much tighter. Like tight hands that wrap around your throat when you disobey your family or try to run away with few possibilities of help from the law.
And of course these things happen everywhere, but I have a hard time looking past all the institutionalized human rights abuses in these countries just because they maybe value the family more than we do. You don't have to think we're inherently superior, a short time ago we weren't that much better and are still improving, but we worked hard as a culture to get where we are and 99% of women living here would agree that the grass is truly greener on the other side.
Are you saying you believe that a tight-knit family unit is what causes the human rights abuses in the Middle East?
I'll join that 99% of women too. The Middle East for me is somewhere to visit, not live. But I happily still live and breathe a lot of the cultural attributes and always will.
Are you saying you believe that a tight-knit family unit is what causes the human rights abuses in the Middle East?
I'll join that 99% of women too. The Middle East for me is somewhere to visit, not live. But I happily still live and breathe a lot of the cultural attributes and always will.
Confusing run-on sentence, sorry. It should read "hard time looking past ______ just because", not abuses happen because.
And when I'm in countries that use cheap labor, I love to live and breathe the low prices.
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them
Just to put across a more "moderate" view on hijab and its mechanism, where it is also mentioned that hijab applies to men too, not just women.
This a by a well respected Sheikh(Scholar), who also says that the 1st Caliph after the Prophet banned the Hijab(from 1:30..) and that during Islamic rule in Medina, there were women walking bare breasted on the streets. His advice is for men to lower their gaze i.e. the responsibility rests equally on both men and women, not just women. Unfornuately, as we male dominated societies, the decision is almost always not in the favour of women.
To support your point, they happen in India too, which is predominantly a Hindu country. Its more to do with culture than religion. I frequently read about this in Indian newspapers(I am an Indian Muslim), don't have exact statistics though apart from the Wiki article I "linked"
Either way its bad and its unIslamic.
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Agree with all four points - including Switzerland. But in Switzerland, I've also experienced horrific treatment solely due to being a woman.
'Horrific' can be highly subjective ranging from a woman's torture and murder to a woman taking offence at a man not offering her a seat on a bus or being passed over for a promotion.
Anyway, just to bring in a bit of perspective - horrific things happen to all sorts of people all over the world. It's how those individual nations' laws and customs deal with it which is the important thing.
In Switzerland, abuse and maltreatment of anyone, male or female, usually brings the weight of the law down on whoever is responsible. If it is somehow "unjust" or equality is not shown our open society allows it to be reported publically in the media or discussed openly without fear of "repercussions".
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them
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'Horrific' can be highly subjective ranging from a woman's torture and murder to a woman taking offence at a man not offering her a seat on a bus or being passed over for a promotion.
Anyway, just to bring in a bit of perspective - horrific things happen to all sorts of people all over the world. It's how those individual nations' laws and customs deal with it which is the important thing.
In Switzerland, abuse and maltreatment of anyone, male or female, usually brings the weight of the law down on whoever is responsible. If it is somehow "unjust" or equality is not shown our open society allows it to be reported publically in the media or discussed openly without fear of "repercussions".
Let's use some common sense here now. ;p If it threatened my livelihood and that of my family, plus involved legal interventions and isn't appropriate to discuss here, do you think it involved something like not being offered a seat on a bus or being passed over for a promotion? Oh yah, and I wasn't murdered.
Let's use some common sense here now. ;p If it threatened my livelihood and that of my family, plus involved legal interventions and isn't appropriate to discuss here, do you think it involved something like not being offered a seat on a bus or being passed over for a promotion? Oh yah, and I wasn't murdered.
Yes, the law does indeed come down. =)
Yes, but can you denounce the whole of Switzerland as not protecting women from some hitherto undefined "horrific treatment" in the same way as Saudi Arabia? Or is this a one off miscarriage of justice that somehow happened to you?
You will find one-offs and abnormalities in any society but, fortunately, I don't think they have become mainstream enough yet to put Switzerland and Saudi in the same women's rights barrel.
Is that perhaps the common-sense this thread is looking for?
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them
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Yes, but can you denounce the whole of Switzerland as not protecting women from some hitherto undefined "horrific treatment" in the same way as Saudi Arabia? Or is this a one off miscarriage of justice that somehow happened to you?
You will find one-offs and abnormalities in any society but, fortunately, I don't think they have become mainstream enough yet to put Switzerland and Saudi in the same women's rights barrel.
Is that perhaps the common-sense this thread is looking for?
Of course - I agree. It's not a one-off as I've since come across others who have experienced a similar situation. But I hope and think it's uncommon like you say.
Still, something like this is enough for me to personally vote Switzerland as the most oppressive place I've lived. And yet, I love it for so many other reasons.
Edit: I'm wondering where you think anyone is putting Saudi and Switzerland in the same barrel for women's rights? Sorry if I've missed something here...
Last edited by little_isabella; 21.11.2011 at 13:03.
Reason: Adding a question
Of course - I agree. It's not a one-off as I've since come across others who have experienced a similar situation. But I hope and think it's uncommon like you say.
Still, something like this is enough for me to personally vote Switzerland as the most oppressive place I've lived. And yet, I love it for so many other reasons.
Switzerland as an oppressive society. That's not something you read every day.
Then again, an emotional personal experience perhaps colours and bends one's vocabulary...
Edit: I'm wondering where you think anyone is putting Saudi and Switzerland in the same barrel for women's rights? Sorry if I've missed something here...
Dunno - probably was because the thread was about Saudi women's come to bed eyes and it suddenly lurched onto "horrific treatment of women in Switzerland" - found it a bit odd (and vaguely inappropriate), that's all.
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them
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Switzerland as an oppressive society. That's not something you read every day.
Then again, an emotional personal experience perhaps colours and bends one's vocabulary...
I know, right.
Swiss woman: "I experienced sexism in the office and the authorities were slow in responding due to lack of evidence and it being their word against mine. I had to quit, and go on unemployment before finding opportunities elsewhere."
Middle East woman: "I would like to get educated and work, but laws don't allow it and my husband is hostile to the notion. My husband has decided to take on another wife and sometimes hits me without me being able to contact the authorities. I can't leave the house or see a doctor without a male family member present."
Swiss woman: "We're the same, you and I."
Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them
I usually refrain from this kind of topics, since it's the only one I can get really irrationally insane.
In any case, comparing women's sulfrage in Switzerland to women's sulfrage in the Middle East is like comparing onions to potatoes.
Just because in your scale women in the Middle East suffer more than those in Europe, it doesn't mean that one or the other is to be disregarded.
The perfect society does not exist, but we all are trying to achieve it in our own ways.
I was taught to clean up my backyard first before I go meddling in the neighbour's yard.
I can't compare my fight inside my working space for equal rights to the fight of women in Saudi Arabia to be able to drive. It shouldn't be compared at all. But just because someone else in this world suffers more than me, it doesn't make my suffering any less "worthy". It's like trying to blame oneself up with the obscene hypocritical depressive cicle of "Hei, the people in Africa suffer much more than me, so I am not worthy of my own happiness".
Want a pretty easy to understand example?
"Somewhere in this world women are held as slaves. So if my partener beats me up once and a while, it gives me no right to complain or fight back, because someone else is suffering much more than me."
And now I'm out.
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