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  #101  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:05
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I usually refrain from this kind of topics, since it's the only one I can get really irrationally insane.

In any case, comparing women's sulfrage in Switzerland to women's sulfrage in the Middle East is like comparing onions to potatoes.

Just because in your scale women in the Middle East suffer more than those in Europe, it doesn't mean that one or the other is to be disregarded.

The perfect society does not exist, but we all are trying to achieve it in our own ways.

I was taught to clean up my backyard first before I go meddling in the neighbour's yard.

I can't compare my fight inside my working space for equal rights to the fight of women in Saudi Arabia to be able to drive. It shouldn't be compared at all. But just because someone else in this world suffers more than me, it doesn't make my suffering any less "worthy". It's like trying to blame oneself up with the obscene hypocritical depressive cicle of "Hei, the people in Africa suffer much more than me, so I am not worthy of my own happiness".

Want a pretty easy to understand example?

"Somewhere in this world women are held as slaves. So if my partener beats me up once and a while, it gives me no right to complain or fight back, because someone else is suffering much more than me."


And now I'm out.
No one is downplaying the suffering of women in our backyard in the way you're describing. Even in my satirical example, the situation for the woman isn't exactly peachy. The issue is: what kind of safety net does society have to protect victims of injustice? It's not perfect anywhere, but do we have the right to point out that things are more than a slight bit better over here than they are over there? Yes we do. It goes beyond patting yourself on the back, but reminding yourself how good you have it and continuing to fight for those rights and never giving them up. I guess in extreme cases it can lead to the kind morally relativist victimhood you describe, but no one is this thread is condoning that.
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  #102  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:11
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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They also hang child rapists, don't they?

Honor killing have nothing to do with Islam. It happens sometime even in Christian villages over there.
But they do nothing about men who rape women?
In fact it is often the woman who is punished; I am sure the women enjoy that just as much as the other traditions they voluntarily support.
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  #103  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:11
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

I got it from in between lines such as this one, lost in the middle of a bigger context:

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Switzerland as an oppressive society. That's not something you read every day.
I know it probably is not meant as big issue, but what I and other women go through in Switzerland is no reason to laugh.

Yes, we could all go with the campaign "if you don't like it, move", which has been offered to me before in this forum twice.

The dangers in Western society is abuse, mistreating and unequal rights for women are hidden from the naked eye, so people tend to pay no attention to it or refuse to accept it, or worse, tend to diminuish it's importance because somewhere in this planet another woman is suffering more.

I'm sorry, it's nothing against Sandgroudner, but I got little tirades like this hidden among other comments, and I just exploded. Might have to do with the fact I had to hear again this morning that women in Switzerland are only interested in finding someone rich to marry and be lazy for the rest of their lives. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in the 50's in this country.
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  #104  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:12
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I usually refrain from this kind of topics, since it's the only one I can get really irrationally insane.

In any case, comparing women's sulfrage in Switzerland to women's sulfrage in the Middle East is like comparing onions to potatoes.

Just because in your scale women in the Middle East suffer more than those in Europe, it doesn't mean that one or the other is to be disregarded.

The perfect society does not exist, but we all are trying to achieve it in our own ways.

I was taught to clean up my backyard first before I go meddling in the neighbour's yard.

I can't compare my fight inside my working space for equal rights to the fight of women in Saudi Arabia to be able to drive. It shouldn't be compared at all. But just because someone else in this world suffers more than me, it doesn't make my suffering any less "worthy". It's like trying to blame oneself up with the obscene hypocritical depressive cicle of "Hei, the people in Africa suffer much more than me, so I am not worthy of my own happiness".

Want a pretty easy to understand example?

"Somewhere in this world women are held as slaves. So if my partener beats me up once and a while, it gives me no right to complain or fight back, because someone else is suffering much more than me."


And now I'm out.
Er helm, no one is denying that the treatment of women of women in Switzerland or any developed Western nations can be better or dismissing anyone's suffering as "less worthy".

But the point when comparing Iran vs Switzerland, saying that Switzerland is the most oppressive when it comes to womens rights, isnt really the most credible example of illustrating a point about oppressiveness when it comes to the general perception of the average person.

Last edited by summerrain; 21.11.2011 at 15:54. Reason: grammar!
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  #105  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:13
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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No thread abour Islam\muslims will be completed without mention of beating women, Honor killing, terrorists, etc.

And if the thread is about Middle East, the mention of Islam mixed with culture and all the above should be mentioned
Well if you want to add those things into this thread then "it is your nickel" as they say.
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  #106  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:14
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

I'm personally still amazed that the owners of Englishforum allow women to post here. Don't they have any knitting or cooking that still needs doing...?

It's a man's world, now move on please, nothing to see here.
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  #107  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:19
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I'm personally still amazed that the owners of Englishforum allow women to post here. Don't they have any knitting or cooking that still needs doing...?

It's a man's world, now move on please, nothing to see here.
Well the owner is not based in Saoudi Arabia, so...... suck it up!
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  #108  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:26
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I got it from in between lines such as this one, lost in the middle of a bigger context:

I know it probably is not meant as big issue, but what I and other women go through in Switzerland is no reason to laugh.

Yes, we could all go with the campaign "if you don't like it, move", which has been offered to me before in this forum twice.

The dangers in Western society is abuse, mistreating and unequal rights for women are hidden from the naked eye, so people tend to pay no attention to it or refuse to accept it, or worse, tend to diminuish it's importance because somewhere in this planet another woman is suffering more.

I'm sorry, it's nothing against Sandgroudner, but I got little tirades like this hidden among other comments, and I just exploded. Might have to do with the fact I had to hear again this morning that women in Switzerland are only interested in finding someone rich to marry and be lazy for the rest of their lives. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in the 50's in this country.
But none of what you write has anything to do with "oppression" in its true sense of the meaning when referring to society. I just think people aren't careful enough when they bandy about words like that which then trivialise the true issues.

Here, if you are abused or victimised you can get help without someone coming to your place after dark and chucking acid all over you for speaking up.

Here, if you are raped you don't then get beaten or imprisoned for leading the "poor defenceless" man on, and it all being your fault.

Bandying over-emotive words in inappropriate situations for effect gets my goat and is a dis-service, disrespectful and insulting to those stuck in truly oppressed societies where the statement "if you don't like it, leave." is just a sick joke.

I'm not saying that women aren't treated unfairly, nor am I saying that women are not abused in Switzerland but I think the perspective was monumentally lost somewhere in the thread.
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  #109  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:38
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I got it from in between lines such as this one, lost in the middle of a bigger context:

I know it probably is not meant as big issue, but what I and other women go through in Switzerland is no reason to laugh.

Yes, we could all go with the campaign "if you don't like it, move", which has been offered to me before in this forum twice.

The dangers in Western society is abuse, mistreating and unequal rights for women are hidden from the naked eye, so people tend to pay no attention to it or refuse to accept it, or worse, tend to diminuish it's importance because somewhere in this planet another woman is suffering more.

I'm sorry, it's nothing against Sandgroudner, but I got little tirades like this hidden among other comments, and I just exploded. Might have to do with the fact I had to hear again this morning that women in Switzerland are only interested in finding someone rich to marry and be lazy for the rest of their lives. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in the 50's in this country.
Helm, by no means I wish to downplay the limitations a professional woman may face in the workplace. We (as in professional women) have all encountered the gits who discriminate us because we are who we are and we do what we do, not only in Switzerland but perhaps everywhere. And I agree with you when you say that, just because others suffer more, it's no good reason to downplay our own difficulties.

However, see this hypothetical scenario: say I am discriminated as a professional because I am a woman, here in Switzerland. I can take it up to my boss, to HR, to the newspapers, I can have a good rant on the EF, I can name and shame the company, I can seek legal assistance, I can raise my voice until someone hears me. In the extreme situation, after I have done all this, I can choose to leave the country, not because I am a quitter, but because I care about my sanity and I have options. I can also choose to stay put and continue the fight, perhaps other voices would join mine and things would change.

In order to do all this, I don't need the permission of anyone, I am free to have a voice, I am free to be heard, and I am not afraid I will be "properly disposed of" (as in eliminated) for doing so. Life is hard and we all fight our fights, but in a country like Switzerland, with all its pros and cons (or Italy, or the US, or Portugal, or tens of other countries) I have enough confidence in the rule of law that I can raise my voice, deal with it, and be protected, if I so choose. I am sorry, but I personally can't say I would have the same confidence if I were in many countries in this world, including the two cited in this thread, Saudi Arabia and Iran. This, by no means, implies that our daily struggle is less hard - in CH or anywhere else.
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  #110  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:43
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Er helm, no one is denying that the treatment of women of women in Switzerland or any developed Western nations is can be better or dismissing anyone's suffering as "less worthy".

But the point is to compare Iran vs Switzerland, saying that Switzerland is the most oppressive, isnt really the most credible example of illustrating a point about oppressiveness when it comes to the general perception of the average person.
Where did anyone say Iran was less oppressive than Switzerland?

Last edited by little_isabella; 21.11.2011 at 15:59. Reason: Typo.
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  #111  
Old 21.11.2011, 15:54
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I'm personally still amazed that the owners of Englishforum allow women to post here. Don't they have any knitting or cooking that still needs doing...?

It's a man's world, now move on please, nothing to see here.
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  #112  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:08
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Where did anyone say Iran was less oppressive than Switzerland?


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  #113  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:47
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Where did anyone say Iran was less oppressive than Switzerland?
You did use the word "most".

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The most oppressive place I've lived when it comes to treatment of women is actually Switzerland.
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  #114  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:50
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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You did use the word "most".
Well she didn't live in Iran... So maybe it is for her THE most oppressive place she has been to. Now it is very subjective how this is translated...
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  #115  
Old 21.11.2011, 16:54
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Well she didn't live in Iran... So maybe it is for her THE most oppressive place she has been to. Now it is very subjective how this is translated...
Thanks for clarifying Frau Nil. But to compare Iran to Switzerland when it comes to womans' rights really is like comparing apples and oranges. You dont need to live in Iran to know that the women have it better here, no?
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  #116  
Old 21.11.2011, 17:04
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Thanks for clarifying Frau Nil. But to compare Iran to Switzerland when it comes to womans' rights really is like comparing apples and oranges. You dont need to live in Iran to know that the women have it better here, no?
Yep and that's what I was saying by my last sentence.
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  #117  
Old 21.11.2011, 17:24
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I'm personally still amazed that the owners of Englishforum allow women to post here. Don't they have any knitting or cooking that still needs doing...?

It's a man's world, now move on please, nothing to see here.

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  #118  
Old 21.11.2011, 17:56
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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But they do nothing about men who rape women?
In fact it is often the woman who is punished; I am sure the women enjoy that just as much as the other traditions they voluntarily support.

  • Adultery (zina-e-mohsen) is punishable by 100 lashes for unmarried people, It is punishable by death by stoning (or hanging) for married people, or for incest. If a unmarried non-Muslim male had sexual relations with a Muslim female, the non-Muslim male would be put to death. Four witnessess (rather than two witnesses) must prove adultery, or the person must confess four times, or by judge's knowledge. If the person confesses twice and are "repentent", the judge can either sentence them to 100 lashes or death.
  • Rape (zina-be-onf) has same requirements as adultery, but the only penalty is death by hanging. In cases where it does not meet the proof requirements, or a lesser case, it would be punished as a tazir crime (such as "sexual assault" or "indecency"). If a weapon was used, the person could possibly be punished for "moharebeh", and given execution or a long prison sentence. The rapist must pay compensation to his victim, often in exchange for waiving the death sentence, and they can recieve lashes as well.
http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/publ...FQkLfAodemc4rw
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  #119  
Old 21.11.2011, 18:33
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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  • Adultery (zina-e-mohsen) is punishable by 100 lashes for unmarried people, It is punishable by death by stoning (or hanging) for married people, or for incest. If a unmarried non-Muslim male had sexual relations with a Muslim female, the non-Muslim male would be put to death. Four witnessess (rather than two witnesses) must prove adultery, or the person must confess four times, or by judge's knowledge. If the person confesses twice and are "repentent", the judge can either sentence them to 100 lashes or death.
  • Rape (zina-be-onf) has same requirements as adultery, but the only penalty is death by hanging. In cases where it does not meet the proof requirements, or a lesser case, it would be punished as a tazir crime (such as "sexual assault" or "indecency"). If a weapon was used, the person could possibly be punished for "moharebeh", and given execution or a long prison sentence. The rapist must pay compensation to his victim, often in exchange for waiving the death sentence, and they can recieve lashes as well.
http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/publ...FQkLfAodemc4rw
So you don't see a problem with "rape" carryin the same punishment as "as a non-Muslim, having consensual sex with a Muslim woman", with the main difference being that the rapist can buy his life? Really?

You're sure you're not a troll?
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  #120  
Old 21.11.2011, 19:04
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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So you don't see a problem with "rape" carryin the same punishment as "as a non-Muslim, having consensual sex with a Muslim woman", with the main difference being that the rapist can buy his life? Really?
Of course there is a difference, I just want to point that rape is punished.

There was a case of an unmarried german man who escaped death sentence, guess how.

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You're sure you're not a troll?
No, I’m just too close to region and can see things much clear.

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