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  #121  
Old 21.11.2011, 19:58
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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  • Adultery (zina-e-mohsen) is punishable by 100 lashes for unmarried people, It is punishable by death by stoning (or hanging) for married people, or for incest. If a unmarried non-Muslim male had sexual relations with a Muslim female, the non-Muslim male would be put to death. Four witnessess (rather than two witnesses) must prove adultery, or the person must confess four times, or by judge's knowledge. If the person confesses twice and are "repentent", the judge can either sentence them to 100 lashes or death.
  • Rape (zina-be-onf) has same requirements as adultery, but the only penalty is death by hanging. In cases where it does not meet the proof requirements, or a lesser case, it would be punished as a tazir crime (such as "sexual assault" or "indecency"). If a weapon was used, the person could possibly be punished for "moharebeh", and given execution or a long prison sentence. The rapist must pay compensation to his victim, often in exchange for waiving the death sentence, and they can recieve lashes as well.
http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/publ...FQkLfAodemc4rw
The Iran constitution is a well written document & has a lot of good things in it. Mostly I do not think it is followed or lived.
Iran's constitution specifically permits peaceful protest; ask the young people who participated in the Green revolution if the constitution was followed & they were allowed to protest peacefully?

The link you sent shows a total of 621 executions in 2011 of which 29 were for rape (excluding categories like rape & murder). So what is your point?
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  #122  
Old 21.11.2011, 21:39
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

I think Little Isabella was trying to express the love and respect she has of her culture and it's people. She defended her perceptions with a great deal of courage and it may have been a little lonely at times, reading this thread.

Eventhough all of the cold facts are certainly a reality, they do not define the warmth of a people.
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  #123  
Old 21.11.2011, 22:26
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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The Iran constitution is a well written document & has a lot of good things in it. Mostly I do not think it is followed or lived.
Iran's constitution specifically permits peaceful protest; ask the young people who participated in the Green revolution if the constitution was followed & they were allowed to protest peacefully?
Mojahedin of the Islamic Revolution Organization not to be confused with People's Mujahedin of Iran.


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The link you sent shows a total of 621 executions in 2011 of which 29 were for rape (excluding categories like rape & murder).
The rapist must pay compensation to his victim, often in exchange for waiving the death sentence.

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In fact it is often the woman who is punished; I am sure the women enjoy that just as much as the other traditions they voluntarily support.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4295111.stm

Probably in other countries they are honored with silver star in similar cases.

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So what is your point?
I don't like colour revolutions and crazy neocons. BTW, why don’t they arrange one in Saudi Arabia ?

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  #124  
Old 21.11.2011, 22:47
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Well she didn't live in Iran... So maybe it is for her THE most oppressive place she has been to. Now it is very subjective how this is translated...
But, whilst mentioning her point about Switzerland being the most oppressive place she has lived in, she has avoided answering any of the questions re where she has lived - thus denying us the opportunity to learn from her relative experiences.
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  #125  
Old 21.11.2011, 22:49
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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But, whilst mentioning her point about Switzerland being the most oppressive place she has lived in, she has avoided answering any of the questions re where she has lived - thus denying us the opportunity to learn from her relative experiences.
Biff, it's a public forum and a free world, she doesn't owe anybody an answer !!
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  #126  
Old 21.11.2011, 23:22
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I think Little Isabella was trying to express the love and respect she has of her culture and it's people. She defended her perceptions with a great deal of courage and it may have been a little lonely at times, reading this thread.

Eventhough all of the cold facts are certainly a reality, they do not define the warmth of a people.
This is so true. Once you get to know the people closely and once you see them as warm and kind hearted human beings (as I did with my Saudi students), it becomes hard to focus solely on human rights abuse going on there, etc. So I can also say I understand where Little Isabella is coming from.
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  #127  
Old 21.11.2011, 23:28
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Biff, it's a public forum and a free world, she doesn't owe anybody an answer !!
Agreed. I like your choice of words. Deliberate?
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  #128  
Old 22.11.2011, 06:01
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I think Little Isabella was trying to express the love and respect she has of her culture and it's people. She defended her perceptions with a great deal of courage and it may have been a little lonely at times, reading this thread.

Eventhough all of the cold facts are certainly a reality, they do not define the warmth of a people.
Sure. But you know: THE THREAD IS ON SAUDI ARABIA. I do not crash into a discussion on France defending Germany... she is continuously going off topic and if she had thrown in there some random youtube links I'd believe hoppy is back with a new account. And if you then come in here and claim that most women in the middle east are ok with their "culture" - well, don't complain if even the more moderate and balanced people here disagree with you. Isabellas "arguments" were quite the opposite of stringent and logical.

It does not take that much to understand that people who object for example the death penalty do not necessarily object Iran as a nation or all the people in it. Just as I do not agree to many US policies and still am nothing close to anti-American. I am pretty sure that there are plenty of nice Saudis - but forcing women to now cover their eyes as well is just wrong.
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  #129  
Old 22.11.2011, 07:39
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Sure. But you know: THE THREAD IS ON SAUDI ARABIA. I do not crash into a discussion on France defending Germany... she is continuously going off topic and if she had thrown in there some random youtube links I'd believe hoppy is back with a new account. And if you then come in here and claim that most women in the middle east are ok with their "culture" - well, don't complain if even the more moderate and balanced people here disagree with you. Isabellas "arguments" were quite the opposite of stringent and logical.

It does not take that much to understand that people who object for example the death penalty do not necessarily object Iran as a nation or all the people in it. Just as I do not agree to many US policies and still am nothing close to anti-American. I am pretty sure that there are plenty of nice Saudis - but forcing women to now cover their eyes as well is just wrong.
Not "most women." Many women. Read two of my first posts and you'll see they were right on topic.
"But are you judging this from a westernized world?

"Many women embrace and adore this way of life. Truth and I should know, given my family background. Still, I say "many" as we know that there are indeed local women rebelling against the culture."
And another:
"I will also add some personal thoughts here too. Whilst I have many an issue with the treatment of women in the Middle East and actually, here in Switzerland, I think it's dangerous to project these values on others as an outsider.

Where I see incredible strength in the Middle East as a whole is in family values. It's a generalization, I know, but I see most problems in society today relating to a breakdown in the family unit. When I look at my family and friends in the Middle East, there is such an intense love and respect for family. Family is at the heart of everything. This is something I don't see to the same extent in the westernized world.

Oh, if I could only create my perfect world that blends my favorite attributes from around the globe ;p "
Very much pertaining to the thread. It's important when we post about practices in other countries - especially ones where few have lived or visited - we keep a reality check to put things into perspective/balance.

It all basically went awry from here when many people decided that honor killings in the Middle East and a poor history for human rights abuses meant that the family unit couldn't possibly be strong. But my initial point stands in a larger sense that we have to look at the good and bad, especially in relation to the women who live there. And in a smaller sense, I gave an example of such good. An example that most people here don't support, which is fair enough.
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  #130  
Old 22.11.2011, 09:36
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Not "most women." Many women. Read two of my first posts and you'll see they were right on topic.
"But are you judging this from a westernized world?

"Many women embrace and adore this way of life. Truth and I should know, given my family background. Still, I say "many" as we know that there are indeed local women rebelling against the culture."
And another:
"I will also add some personal thoughts here too. Whilst I have many an issue with the treatment of women in the Middle East and actually, here in Switzerland, I think it's dangerous to project these values on others as an outsider.

Where I see incredible strength in the Middle East as a whole is in family values. It's a generalization, I know, but I see most problems in society today relating to a breakdown in the family unit. When I look at my family and friends in the Middle East, there is such an intense love and respect for family. Family is at the heart of everything. This is something I don't see to the same extent in the westernized world.

Oh, if I could only create my perfect world that blends my favorite attributes from around the globe ;p "
Very much pertaining to the thread. It's important when we post about practices in other countries - especially ones where few have lived or visited - we keep a reality check to put things into perspective/balance.

It all basically went awry from here when many people decided that honor killings in the Middle East and a poor history for human rights abuses meant that the family unit couldn't possibly be strong. But my initial point stands in a larger sense that we have to look at the good and bad, especially in relation to the women who live there. And in a smaller sense, I gave an example of such good. An example that most people here don't support, which is fair enough.
On "I am the only one who knows"... : have we met? There are people on this forum (and this thread) who actually have worked in Saudi Arabia. Have you ever been there? Or do you believe that the middle east is all the same and you can draw your conclusions from Iran on Saudi?
My uncle lived there for some years. He was ok with it (and the pay was twice his salary in Germany...) but my aunt forced him to move back to Europe. She was tired of living in a "foreigner compound" in Riyadh not being able to do anything on her own. I am pretty sure she would have been ok in Theran. Cause Shiites aren't as nuts as Wahabis.

Frankly: Nobody here has challenged your points on strong family relations in the middle east. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic: Strong institutional discrimination of women.
I can tell you from my personal background that the far east has easily as strong family concepts as the middle east. But that does not mean that you need to have sexist legislation. The two points have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
It is one thing to have a traditional culture where you expect the women to become a housewife. It is entirely something else to force her to do so by law. And it is again something entirely else to only allow her to leave the house if she is "protected" by a male guardian. Forcing her to wear a full veil on top of that is the next escalation step and now forcing them to cover those evil eyes that tempt the poor good men to leave their path to god is the newest thing.

Forcing women to cover their eyes has nothing to do with a strong family concept. It is the latest step in a very misguided interpretation of Islam.

I have had the fortune to be able to travel large parts of the world and I do not really jump to conclusions - I like to understand the reasons behind traditions. But you know - some traditions are simply not acceptable, no matter what reasons or stories are behind it. Yes, Wahabis have nomadic roots and back in the violent and harsh days in the desert needed to protect their females. All nice, but not a "value" or "culture" that makes their sexist attitude any better today.

It actually doesn't even matter if most, many or even all women there agree to the laws - human rights are nothing to vote or haggle about. Many Swiss women also didn't feel the need to vote before they were allowed to do so. How many would today be willing to give up their rights?
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  #131  
Old 22.11.2011, 12:11
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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On "I am the only one who knows"... : have we met?
Where did you get that quote from because it's not mine?

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Nobody here has challenged your points on strong family relations in the middle east.
Not correct.
"Some family. Where a father kills his daughter to preserve the family honor.... "
There are more but I think that's enough.

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Forcing women to cover their eyes has nothing to do with a strong family concept. It is the latest step in a very misguided interpretation of Islam.
I agree. In fact, I would say it has little to do with a strong family concept. That's my point exactly. Such strong family values exist despite these kinds of laws.

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But you know - some traditions are simply not acceptable, no matter what reasons or stories are behind it. Yes, Wahabis have nomadic roots and back in the violent and harsh days in the desert needed to protect their females. All nice, but not a "value" or "culture" that makes their sexist attitude any better today.
Yes, yes, we agree here. I have never said I support such "traditions." Quite the opposite, in fact.

I think your arguments are in response to quotes I never made and sentiments I don't represent.

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It actually doesn't even matter if most, many or even all women there agree to the laws - human rights are nothing to vote or haggle about.
The opinions of the women who bear the brunt of changes we westerners see as fit don't matter? Totally disagree. They matter a great deal. And for successful change, which means implementation of a law - not just writing and passing it - you need these women on board. It's easy to project our values of what constitute human rights on others. But it can be harder to actually listen to the women who support what we fight against.

Last edited by little_isabella; 22.11.2011 at 12:16. Reason: Fixing a quote.
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  #132  
Old 22.11.2011, 12:49
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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It's easy to project our values of what constitute human rights on others. But it can be harder to actually listen to the women who support what we fight against.
Equality & Freedom are global human rights.
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  #133  
Old 22.11.2011, 12:55
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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The opinions of the women who bear the brunt of changes we westerners see as fit don't matter? Totally disagree. They matter a great deal. And for successful change, which means implementation of a law - not just writing and passing it - you need these women on board. It's easy to project our values of what constitute human rights on others. But it can be harder to actually listen to the women who support what we fight against.
I was talking about the declaration of human rights - that's not some western cultural imperialism, but a set of values the GENERAL ASSEMBLY of the UN agreed on. Nobody voted against it, eight abstentions. Seven were the USSR and satellite states, the only non-communist one: Saudi Arabia. Yes, even Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan actually agreed to it... back in 1948. Looks like they were more advanced before religious nut-cases managed to run the countries.
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  #134  
Old 22.11.2011, 13:06
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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Equality & Freedom are global human rights.
We don't all define equality and freedom in the same way. If we did, this thread wouldn't exist.
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  #135  
Old 22.11.2011, 13:15
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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I was talking about the declaration of human rights - that's not some western cultural imperialism, but a set of values the GENERAL ASSEMBLY of the UN agreed on. Nobody voted against it, eight abstentions. Seven were the USSR and satellite states, the only non-communist one: Saudi Arabia. Yes, even Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan actually agreed to it... back in 1948. Looks like they were more advanced before religious nut-cases managed to run the countries.
Well sure, since none of the women in the Middle East had the capacity to vote against it, then they must surely agree with it.

It doesn't change the reality, which is that there are many women who support some of these inequalities such as covering their face and body. Now don't come back saying I cite "most" women. In fact, a growing number of women are rebelling against this part of the culture. I have family who left for these kinds of reasons (among others) and know others who fled for more terrifying ones such as torture.

You're missing my point. If you want to see your version of freedom or the UN's version of freedom or the generalized global version of freedom (call it what you will), you must acknowledge that there will be resistance to this change not just from men who dictate such laws but also some women who follow them. To truly be successful requires understanding the roots of this resistance while harnessing the positive intent and support of those who fight for these freedoms.
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  #136  
Old 22.11.2011, 13:16
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

The definitions are clear,that's why oppresive societies are afraid of them.

And that's why this thread exist.
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Old 22.11.2011, 13:22
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

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The definitions are clear,that's why oppresive societies are afraid of them.

And that's why this thread exist.
The definitions are clearly in conflict.
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Old 22.11.2011, 13:32
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

I'll add a different example in hopes the parallel helps make some sense of my earlier point. =)

Take female circumcision. I, and most people here I would imagine, consider this a shocking form of mutilation on women. But what is even more shocking to me is that it's usually carried out by women - women who know the pain of the mutilation themselves. While it's illegal in westernized countries, it still exists even there. To stop it requires more than laws but also understanding the roots of such abuse, so we can best calm resistance to our views and thus make our views, their views.
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Old 22.11.2011, 13:34
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

The conflict is only with oppresive regimes and individuals. Small wonder saudi only abolished slavery in the 1960s
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Old 22.11.2011, 13:36
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Re: Saudi women with 'tempting' eyes may be forced to cover them

Didn't read the entire thread, but was this posted yet?
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