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  #21  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:43
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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We have every right to be upset, but what upsets me the most is the constant bashing, on the US from 4000 miles away on issues that happen in so many other Countries, but the US seem to be the easy target.

I am a naturalized US citizen, went there with my family as a young child. I have a personal gratitude and patriotism to the USA, for all the wonderful opportunities it has afforded me. I was accepted into an Ivy league school, owned my first home at the age 22, and could go on and on.

Would these opportunities be bestowed upon me in my home country, or even if I had moved to Switzerland at that age? probably not.
and while you're talking about patriotism and gratitude, one of the things that the USA gave the world is an unambiguous interpretation of the concept of Free Speech and total equality before the law. As far as I know, they were the first country to cement free speech into their constitution, and probably without that having been so, all these other things you feel gratitude for would never have come to be. So what exactly is so anti-American about Americans and non-Americans alike criticising the erosion of that right?
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  #22  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:48
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Speak for yourself?

And here's a better article: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/1...over-detainees
I am speaking for myself, what could I possibly say for you bunch of self righteous, pedestal high folks?
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  #23  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:50
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

That's precisely the problem...Everyone who is resistant or even ignorant to the criticism because they believe it's anti-anything to be critical in the first place...That's a fundamental problem atm that is allowing the collective wool to be pulled over their eyes...Dissent, it's an essential part of what a democracy is supposed to be

Otherwise, it's a short hop to fascism...America is currently not the America it aspires to be nevermind purports to be
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Old 01.12.2011, 15:56
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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That's precisely the problem...Everyone who is resistant or even ignorant to the criticism because they believe it's anti-anything to be critical in the first place...That's a fundamental problem atm that is allowing the collective wool to be pulled over their eyes...Dissent, it's an essential part of what a democracy is supposed to be

Otherwise, it's a short hop to fascism...America is currently not the America it aspires to be nevermind purports to be
That is one of the main issues I have with the US - to criticize is to be a traitor among many there.

It definitely isn't the America I grew up in, it seems to grow stranger and stranger as each year passes.
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Old 01.12.2011, 15:56
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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I am speaking for myself, what could I possibly say for you bunch of self righteous, pedestal high folks?
Sorry, you'll have to shout. The hole you're in is quite deep.
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  #26  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:04
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Sorry, you'll have to shout. The hole you're in is quite deep.
Quite the contrary. Unlike most who has no life outside of this forum, but claim how "happy" they are here, I'm sitting on top of the roof with my loved ones. We don't dig holes for each other, so no shouting, we all have a voice.
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  #27  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:07
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Quite the contrary. Unlike most who has no life outside of this forum, but claim how "happy" they are here, I'm sitting on top of the roof with my loved ones. We don't dig holes for each other, so no shouting, we all have a voice.
Then why are you on here complaining that we're US bashing when trying to have a legitimate discussion on a scary news item from the US?
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Old 01.12.2011, 16:16
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Given that for all those who are not U.S. citizens that right ceased to exist quite some time ago, I say it was about time U.S. citizens got tarred with the same brush
I think you're failing to make a (necessary) distinction between the actions of the twin-party ruling class (= Congress) in Washington, on the one hand, and the US population, on the other. US citizens don't get a chance to vote on any of these kinds of measures — whether directed towards others or towards themselves. (If they did, do you really think they would vote for them?) The American public hasn't controlled Washington for many decades now, even if the majority of them won't admit it.

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It's all over the news -- still in the early stages, so let's hope that everyone wakes up. Clearly completely unconstitutional.
Washington hasn't cared what is or isn't constitutional for decades. The ever-growing glut of unaccountable bureaucrats foisted on the population by Congress is mostly unconstitutional, and has been for the better part of a century. It's encouraging that there's been more "push-back" recently, but I think it'll still be a while before "everyone wakes up."
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  #29  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:18
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Then why are you on here complaining that we're US bashing when trying to have a legitimate discussion on a scary news item from the US?
The same reason you are on here defending your position. What gives you more right than me? And By the Way, you have your own many issues over there in the "UK". So get a handle on those before you meddle in someone else's problems.
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  #30  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:22
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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The same reason you are on here defending your position. What gives you more right than me? And By the Way, you have your own many issues over there in the "UK". So get a handle on those before you meddle in someone else's problems.
Mitziem, these discussions are open to anyone. I realize you are proud of your country and want to defend it, but I'm sure there are more appropriate ways of doing so.
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  #31  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:23
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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The same reason you are on here defending your position. What gives you more right than me? And By the Way, you have your own many issues over there in the "UK". So get a handle on those before you meddle in someone else's problems.
Honestly: If there is one single country that loves to meddle in other countries politics...
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  #32  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:40
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

I shall walk away. I have a deep passion for standing up for what I believe in. I don't condone the ills of life, or a lot of things the American Government inflict on it's people, or even some of the laws here in Switzerland. However, my genuine soul, and how I was raised, makes me not a flip flopper, or say what the masses say, because it may sound good. Have a good evening.
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  #33  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:46
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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I shall walk away. I have a deep passion for standing up for what I believe in. I don't condone the ills of life, or a lot of things the American Government inflict on it's people, or even some of the laws here in Switzerland. However, my genuine soul, and how I was raised, makes me not a flip flopper, or say what the masses say, because it may sound good. Have a good evening.
The only thing you've "stood up" for in this thread is fighting for people who criticize America to... not do it. Forum discussions are supposed to be debates and your only goal has been to stamp out debate. I don't know what kind of patriot you think you are, but you've been the most un-American person in this thread.
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  #34  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:49
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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(...)
I don't bash the US, but for me have they lost a lot of credibility and the moral high ground over the last decade. How can you ask the guy in Syria to stop torturing if you do the same in Guantanamo and other nameless illegal CIA prisons?
(...)
Worse...they even outsourced the torturing to Syria. Basically improved their torture skills thanks to CIA providing them with a stream of prisoners for training..
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Old 01.12.2011, 16:51
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

Mitzi's reaction, of course, strikes at the heart of what makes it difficult for there to ever really much inertia towards true change over there...Because even someone who appreciates the problems that persist there yet lives comfortably en Suisse is somehow pretending that it's a sustainable model or that it's immune from criticism...It's the whole head in the sand routine, it's juvenile...Even Foreign policy carries on in a similar sort of arrogance

I can be critical of the US, I have that right...I won't make excuses for wrongs anymore than I would for anyone else...but let's not mince words, a great deal of the ills in the world stem directly from Uncle Sam...Worse still, it's become harder & harder to stem the fascist tide in government...We all take blame for that until it's corrected...And as you can see, just because you don't live in the US anymore doesn't mean you take the flagwaver out of the person
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  #36  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:54
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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I have a deep passion for standing up for what I believe in.
So, you're in favor of the US military taking suspects into custody for life without charge?

Because, that's what this thread is about!

Tom
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Old 01.12.2011, 17:07
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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It's Section D.
No, what is being discussed is amendments to the bill and the republican amendments are as bad as everyone is making them out to be. But they also know that Obama will veto it if those amendments are in the bill that gets sent to him. Then they have some political capital to claim he isn't doing enough about terrorism etc. It is campaign season after all. There are also several democratic amendments that still have to be discussed and which would negate many of the worst parts of the republican amendments. So there is still a ways to go before any of this becomes law. Which means that now is not (yet) the time to panic, burn your American passport or nail Americans to the cross.
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  #38  
Old 01.12.2011, 17:13
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

This post was started by an American, who was commenting on something happening in her home country.

This post was not started by somebody trying to "bash" Americans.

This post was not hijacked by people trying to "bash" Americans.

There is a very clear dividing line between the citizens of a country, and it's government i.e. just because I'm British, doesn't mean I fantasise about the Queen (god bless her). Just because you come from a particular country, it doesn't mean you agree with the current government.

Surely then, as a naturalised citizen yourself, you would be happy that an American would be taking interest in American issues? Isn't that what your democracy is about?

Does "Freedom" mean that you no longer have the right to question your own government doing something that you disagree with?

Are elections something that should be stopped in your country if disagreeing with the current administration is "unamerican" and "American Bashing"? Would voting against it be classed as an "unamerican" action?

Healthy discussion is all part of democracy.

If, unlike the rest of us, you AGREE with rendition flights, life imprisonment for purely being a suspect etc, then please SHARE your opinion with us. Maybe you'll change a few minds, maybe not.

Was it not Voltaire that said "I disagree with your view, but will defend to the death your right to say it" (or something like that)?
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  #39  
Old 01.12.2011, 17:18
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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No, what is being discussed is amendments to the bill and the republican amendments are as bad as everyone is making them out to be. But they also know that Obama will veto it if those amendments are in the bill that gets sent to him. Then they have some political capital to claim he isn't doing enough about terrorism etc. It is campaign season after all. There are also several democratic amendments that still have to be discussed and which would negate many of the worst parts of the republican amendments. So there is still a ways to go before any of this becomes law. Which means that now is not (yet) the time to panic, burn your American passport or nail Americans to the cross.
Don't say "no" unless you're going to Offer up what you think it is. I've been following this for a few days (even posted a link to it in a different thread) and I know it's that section. So if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, then show me where I'm wrong. Don't just say < "No" > and then ramble on blah blah amendment blah.
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Old 01.12.2011, 17:21
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

In theory. Let's say the USA were after a Saudi citizen who may be harbored up in a third country, why not say Pakistan for example?

After countless thousand of lives had been lost spent searching for this average bearded man in the wrong place, do you think that the constitution would allow a small military team to bring the Saudi to justice?

"Oh sorry, seems I have a caller on line 1, oh, you're a lawyer you say?"

"Oh wait, a legal precedent was set back in May 2011 you say and the citizen was sent to the next life via some shark's lunch....?

Interesting, very interesting...
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