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  #41  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:25
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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The people living on the Tibetan plateau call it "China", they consider themselves to be Chinese and want to stay that way.

The people living on the Great Southern continent call it "Australia", consider themselves Australian (and part of the British Empire) and want to stay that way.

The simple fact that certain areas are now occupied by some people who are in favour of their "Empire" doesn't mean that these areas were acquired legitimately. I'm not saying that what Argentina does (or did in 1982) is right. But that should not be used as a justification of European Colonialism, which has destroyed many cultures, lands and peoples and is nothing to be proud of.
So based on that argument, Argentina should not exist as it is the direct result of Spanish Colonialism.
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  #42  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:28
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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Then you should study history.
Ever heard of the WW2 battle of the Falklands?
Just checked my calendar and it's almost 2012. You should get with the times instead of living in the past. I was being facetious. The Falklands have no strategic military importance anymore, something that has been true for the last 50+ years. In case you've forgotten, the British Empire is no more and they don't have any economic or military interests to be protecting in the south Atlantic.

And of course if you ask people from the Falklands whether they'd rather be under the rule of Argentina or the UK they will answer the UK. The island was populated by Brits.
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  #43  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:31
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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The people living on the Tibetan plateau call it "China", they consider themselves to be Chinese and want to stay that way.

The people living on the Great Southern continent call it "Australia", consider themselves Australian (and part of the British Empire) and want to stay that way.

The simple fact that certain areas are now occupied by some people who are in favour of their "Empire" doesn't mean that these areas were acquired legitimately. I'm not saying that what Argentina does (or did in 1982) is right. But that should not be used as a justification of European Colonialism, which has destroyed many cultures, lands and peoples and is nothing to be proud of.
I think the people who live in Tibet call it Tibet and want to be Tibetan...China does not feature.
The rest of your post is a can of worms.
Lets give Europe back to the Celts...unless we can find anyone else who was here before them
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  #44  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:32
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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The people living on the Tibetan plateau call it "China", they consider themselves to be Chinese and want to stay that way.

The people living on the Great Southern continent call it "Australia", consider themselves Australian (and part of the British Empire) and want to stay that way.

The simple fact that certain areas are now occupied by some people who are in favour of their "Empire" doesn't mean that these areas were acquired legitimately. I'm not saying that what Argentina does (or did in 1982) is right. But that should not be used as a justification of European Colonialism, which has destroyed many cultures, lands and peoples and is nothing to be proud of.
Ah! so you think Argentine should be given back to the Guaraní who were also to put it in your words "a victim of European Colonialism"; in this case the Spanish?
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  #45  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:32
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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So based on that argument, Argentina should not exist as it is the direct result of Spanish Colonialism.
if you think about it, it actually means that Argentina should not be a colony of Spain (and it isn't anymore).
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  #46  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:40
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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Just checked my calendar and it's almost 2012. You should get with the times instead of living in the past. I was being facetious. The Falklands have no strategic military importance anymore, something that has been true for the last 50+ years.
I know. My remark was a bit tongue in cheek.

During the 1982 Falklands War, some leftie German friends lectured me on the British "occupation" being "imperialist" and so on and went on to say that the islands had never been of any strategic importance anyway, at which point I reminded them of their own history and attempt to take the islands, a fact that most Germans today are totally unaware of. Of course it's of no significance today but it adds a different perspective to the meaning of the word "never".
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Old 06.12.2011, 16:42
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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if you think about it, it actually means that Argentina should not be a colony of Spain (and it isn't anymore).
Strictly speaking, the Falklands are not a colony of Britain either, and even less so a colony of England (as the Argentian media claim). But let's not let legal arguments get in the way of a good wind-up.
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  #48  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:45
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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Strictly speaking, the Falklands are not a colony of Britain either, and even less so a colony of England (as the Argentian media claim). But let's not let legal arguments get in the way of a good wind-up.
fair enough, nothing to make the day more interesting than winding up the resident forum brits!
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  #49  
Old 06.12.2011, 16:46
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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if you think about it, it actually means that Argentina should not be a colony of Spain (and it isn't anymore).
So the local Argentine people self determined that they did not want to be a colony anymore & successfully revolted.

The local Falklands people self determined that they do want to continue to be a colony of UK & not become a colony of Argentina.

& some people think this is somehow wrong? how?

So take the hypothetical situation that Argentina invades the Falklands & later the locals revolt & throw them out. Is this OK, or not?
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  #50  
Old 06.12.2011, 17:06
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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So the local Argentine people self determined that they did not want to be a colony anymore & successfully revolted.
Only that's not quite what really happened as the people didn't revolt. There was an elite backed by an assortment of Spain's enemies who backed and supported the new rulers and made the revolution happen. At the time much of the hinterland of Argentina was still uncharted territory. Mass immigration did not commence until after independence. The aboriginal population, who were still the majority at the time of independence, were not asked whether they would rather be ruled by white guys in Madrid or white guys in Buenos Aires.
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  #51  
Old 06.12.2011, 17:08
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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I think the people who live in Tibet call it Tibet and want to be Tibetan...China does not feature.
Erm, no. Not at all.

Over 90% of the people living in Tibet are ethnic Han Chinese. Less than ten percent are ethnic Tibetans. So if you could have an absolutely free and democratic vote on independance by the people who currently live there would the outcome be very clear. (But you will never read this in Western media...)

The problem is that those Chinese have settled there after the invasion. They didn't even all volunteerily do so... and talking about said invasion: even that is a difficult question... Tibet has actually been a part of China for centuries and was only an independant state for the short period of mess where the communists had their revolution, civil war, Japanese invasion... in short: During the time where China had bigger problems and didn't manage to keep the entire country together. If it wasn't China and especially Mao at the time but an European power would the whole story hardly be considered an invasion by most. The Tibetans would instead probably be called "separatist terrorists" or something similar... that's probably what Frau Kirchner is calling the Falklanders (Falklandians? Falklandese?). Talking about European oppression is a bit off if you are not exactly an Indio... after all was it not the white people in Europe who made the cash from said oppression but the people who moved to the new world. So her forefathers, not mine...

With the Falklands it's pretty simple: I could not care less and so should both the Argentinians and the Brits. If they do there must be either more oil than I was aware of or there is an election coming up. As it seems currently the latter is the case. Those provocations are just plain illegal and the British should not back down at all.
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  #52  
Old 06.12.2011, 17:12
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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I know. My remark was a bit tongue in cheek.

During the 1982 Falklands War, some leftie German friends lectured me on the British "occupation" being "imperialist" and so on and went on to say that the islands had never been of any strategic importance anyway, at which point I reminded them of their own history and attempt to take the islands, a fact that most Germans today are totally unaware of. Of course it's of no significance today but it adds a different perspective to the meaning of the word "never".
You could also quote the Helgoland/Sansibar treaty from 1890
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  #53  
Old 06.12.2011, 17:19
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

I read a suggestion that it could be a pan-south American attempt to take control of the oil, but if you look at the history of South America you will see that they are far too divided to be capable of any kind or unity. That whole continent has been at war since the conquistadores. There are even predictions that a war between Argentinia and Brazil is a possible outcome over the oil disputes, at the same time it is calclulated that the entire oil in Brazil would keep the world ticking over for two weeks, also it is not of high quality and needs processing, so I don´t think that oil is the driving force.
What then?
Land, land and the ability to grow payload crops, that would give the winner of that conflict the ability to become the next superpower.
Why Falklands and why now?

Britain is has never, ever been weaker than now and as one poster remarked the Argentinan PM Kirchner seems like a cute chick who wants to wave a big dick around.
The very populistic “Las Islas Malvinas son nuestras” was a great rallying cry for the october elections and maybe some favors are being called.
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  #54  
Old 06.12.2011, 17:21
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

I've got some relatives who are Argentinians - and I try to avoid the subject as I can see both sides. I must say however that I've never met a non Brit who thought the situation makes sense, and does not think it is more about oil and a strategic post.

There are similar cases around the world where the final decision was given to the native inhabitants even though they are a tiny minority in the land- the land having been given to settlers a long time ago. Thinking of the Sudeten lands on the Czech/German border, and even at local level, the Jura, where land was given to the Bernese in exchange for the loss of Vaud.
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  #55  
Old 06.12.2011, 17:25
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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There are similar cases around the world where the final decision was given to the native inhabitants even though they are a tiny minority in the land- the land being given to settlers. Thinking of the Sudeten lands on the Czech/German border, and even at local level, the Jura.
Well, the Sudeten Germans were used as a political playball and they ended up paying a high price for a conflict that wasn't their fault.

I don't know if that's a good model for solving future disputes.
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Old 06.12.2011, 17:58
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

I'm from Argentina, and I couldn't possibly imagine any scenario in which any average (and even a sub-average) IQ Argentinean could care less about the Falklands. Everybody in the country knows that the 1980s war was a smoke curtain and a catastrophe, which caused almost 1000 deaths among undertrained Argentinean "soldiers", and some 300 British troops. Whoever has feelings about the Falklands can only feel so because of the almost 30 year-old political propaganda that the populist governments in Argentina have been using non-stop since 1982.
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Old 06.12.2011, 18:08
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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I'm from Argentina, and I couldn't possibly imagine any scenario in which any average (and even a sub-average) IQ Argentinean could care less about the Falklands.
Readily available source of lamb chops? Too much beef on the mainland can get so tiresome ...
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Old 06.12.2011, 18:13
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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Readily available source of lamb chops? Too much beef on the mainland can get so tiresome ...
But do they have mint sauce or will they be forced to trade with the English?
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Old 06.12.2011, 18:44
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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Readily available source of lamb chops? Too much beef on the mainland can get so tiresome ...
not to mention the fish ...
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  #60  
Old 07.12.2011, 09:52
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Re: Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

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Readily available source of lamb chops? Too much beef on the mainland can get so tiresome ...
The thing is, you see...we have plenty of lamb chops on the mainland as well. There are two main regional specialties in the whole Patagonian region, lamb and "chivito" (a very young goat). Drooling, already...


No mint sauce, though. Now my question there would be: why ruin a perfectly good piece of meat with mint ? Or why sauce at all, for that matter ????? I can see why it's perfectly acceptable to marinate barbecue meat in Switzerland, the beef being to lean and dry. But good Argentinean beef...it should be punished, severely punished.
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