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Old 09.12.2011, 14:15
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Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is united

"Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is united," Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite said in blunt English on arriving for the second day of the bloc's eighth crisis summit this year.

Is Uk really being sidelined ?
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Old 09.12.2011, 14:20
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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"Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is united," Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite said in blunt English on arriving for the second day of the bloc's eighth crisis summit this year.

Is Uk really being sidelined ?
A bit like the old newspaper headline "Fog in Channel, Europe Cut Off", Britain sees itself outside Europe anyway. To be a member of the EU means sidelining sovereignty and thus Britain's latest move can be seen as the opposite...
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Old 09.12.2011, 14:22
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

“Our British friends made unacceptable demands,” French President Nicolas Sarkozy said. “They wanted opt-outs on financial regulation. Since we consider it was lack of regulation that caused the crisis, that was a demand that we couldn’t meet.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...icit-deal.html


That's what I call having no f.....g clue what are your real problems.
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Old 09.12.2011, 14:25
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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"Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is united," Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite said in blunt English on arriving for the second day of the bloc's eighth crisis summit this year.

Is Uk really being sidelined ?
No. Europe is
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Old 09.12.2011, 14:38
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

I really hope that the UK will leave the EU altogether soon. That would make the life of Switzerland and other non-EU countries much easier, and it will avoid the "Europe of two speeds".
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Old 09.12.2011, 14:44
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

Revolution, not evolution.
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Old 09.12.2011, 14:48
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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Revolution, not evolution.

It's ironic that people have evolved to be able to say something like that...
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Old 09.12.2011, 14:54
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

It's not just the UK. Finland has been reporting that it is unable to agree to the treaty - http://newsroom.finland.fi/public/de...3&newsid=31252 and
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135270007206
I wonder why none of the press has picked up on that bit yet.
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Old 09.12.2011, 15:12
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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Revolution, not evolution.
.... meaning: in many instances, situations often revert back to how they were before changes were implemented, but often after a circular (revolving) evolution, as to a direct linear progression.

.... and for UTH:
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A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time.
Source
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Old 09.12.2011, 15:50
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmo...rible-mistake/

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The FT is reporting today that the new fiscal rules for the EU “include a commitment not to force private sector bondholders to take losses on any future eurozone bail-outs”. If this principle really does get enshrined into some new treaty, it will be one of the most fiscally insane derelictions of statesmanship the world has seen — but it certainly helps explain the short-term rally that we saw today in Italian government debt.
Right now, the commitment is still vague:
Ms Merkel agreed that private sector bondholders would not be asked to bear some of the losses in any future sovereign debt restructuring, as she had insisted this year in the case of Greece’s second bail-out. However, future eurozone bonds will still include collective action clauses providing for potential voluntary rescheduling of private debt.
Ms Merkel said it was imperative to show that Europe was a “safe place to invest”.
You can safely ignore the bit about collective action clauses. They’re part of the sovereign-debt architecture now, and taking them out would be far more trouble than it was worth: they have to stay in, no matter what. The important thing is that they won’t be used — because if no one’s going to ask bondholders to bear any losses, then they won’t have any proposals to agree to.
The impetus for this completely insane policy seems to have come from the ECB, which genuinely seems to believe that bailing in private-sector banks, in the Greece restructuring, was the “terrible mistake” which caused the current euro crisis. Talk about confusing cause and effect: it was Greece’s fiscal disaster which caused the restructuring and the necessary bail-in.
To understand just how stupid this is, all you need to do is go back and read Michael Lewis’s Ireland article. The fateful decision in Ireland was to take the insolvent banks and give them a blanket bailout, with the banks’ creditors all getting 100 cents on the euro. That only served to put a positively evil debt burden onto the Irish people, forcing a massive austerity program and causing untold billions of euros in foregone growth, while bailing out lenders who deserved no such thing.
Are we really going to repeat — on a much larger scale — the very same mistake that Ireland made? Does no one in Europe realize that this is the single worst thing they can do?
Markets reflect underlying realities, and up until now, the realities have been clear. Europe’s periphery is sinking under the weight of too much debt, and the result will be inevitable pain for private-sector creditors. The best case scenario is that those countries bite the bullet and restructure their debt now, since to delay is to make any restructuring much more painful and expensive than it needs to be.
The worst case scenario is that the EU kicks the can down the road with one new bailout facility after another, until it eventually gives up throwing good money after bad and imposes the restructuring which was inevitable all along. In that case, as one hedge fund manager was explaining to me last week, private sector creditors get devastated: because the EU and the ECB and the IMF won’t take any losses on their loans, all of the haircut, pretty much, will have to be borne by a private sector which accounts for only a fraction of the debt. So the private sector could end up with very, very little indeed.
Now, however, Angela Merkel has come up with another plan. The details aren’t clear, but it seems to involve the EU guaranteeing the debts of its member states. Why this is acceptable while eurobonds aren’t acceptable is a mystery: a mulit-trillion-euro contingent liability is hardly preferable to a couple of hundred billion euros of real liabilities. But there’s eurologic for you.
The immediate result of this plan is that everybody will rush into the highest-yielding bonds in Europe, which is exactly what seems to have happened today. The other effect of the plan, however, is that every country in Europe is now effectively guaranteeing everybody else’s debt. Which is more than sufficient to explain why S&P is minded to downgrade every country in Europe, up to and including Germany.
In order for markets to work, lenders need to suffer when they make bad lending decisions. If the Europeans didn’t learn from Ireland, couldn’t they at least learn from the Fed’s much-criticized decision to pay off all AIG creditors at 100 cents on the dollar? Blanket guarantees at par are pretty much always a really bad idea — and this one, if it comes to pass, will be the biggest one yet. It won’t end well.
I am no economist but that sounds like a fairly solid argument to me.
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Old 09.12.2011, 15:55
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

I keep looking for something that will give me hope that this will end anything but badly and keep failing. I don't get how any of this is supposed to work.
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Old 09.12.2011, 16:08
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

I can't see what David Cameron achieved by this, other than a bit of positive press at home...

He went into the meeting claiming he would veto any agreement that did not give him an opt out on the so called tobin tax, which he did not get. Not alone that, but the others decided to continue without him, so the tobin tax is still on the table and he is not even in the room... How is that a winner?

I've no opinion on if EU membership is a good thing or bad thing for the UK, but I do thing it is about time the people of Britain were given the opportunity to decide one way or the other.
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Old 09.12.2011, 16:13
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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I keep looking for something that will give me hope that this will end anything but badly and keep failing. I don't get how any of this is supposed to work.
it's only supposed to work for the banks.
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Old 09.12.2011, 16:36
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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I can't see what David Cameron achieved by this, other than a bit of positive press at home...

He went into the meeting claiming he would veto any agreement that did not give him an opt out on the so called tobin tax, which he did not get. Not alone that, but the others decided to continue without him, so the tobin tax is still on the table and he is not even in the room... How is that a winner?

I've no opinion on if EU membership is a good thing or bad thing for the UK, but I do thing it is about time the people of Britain were given the opportunity to decide one way or the other.
I think he has achieved some thing in that he has made a point strongly that despite the 21 dragging along behind FR and DE (Fin & Sweden referring to their parliaments) the basic fact remains that the economies are dissimilar, too dissimilar to move towards union. Its wrong, it wont work and someone needs to say it out loud

As for the people agreeing or not one needs to question if they are positioned to answer the question any better than the politicos. After all we have sadly become a nation of people who dont read a paper, dont wantch that show on telly thats really dull, whats it called.....The News!

I have changed my mind and believe now that the Euro is the biggest folly of our times
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Old 09.12.2011, 16:46
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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I think he has achieved some thing in that he has made a point strongly that despite the 21 dragging along behind FR and DE (Fin & Sweden referring to their parliaments) the basic fact remains that the economies are dissimilar, too dissimilar to move towards union. Its wrong, it wont work and someone needs to say it out loud

As for the people agreeing or not one needs to question if they are positioned to answer the question any better than the politicos. After all we have sadly become a nation of people who dont read a paper, dont wantch that show on telly thats really dull, whats it called.....The News!

I have changed my mind and believe now that the Euro is the biggest folly of our times
Somehow I feel that handing national budget governance in some form to non-elected people in Brussels is not a smart thing to do; if they do not do a good job then it is not possible to vote them out.
Especially when you consider that independent auditors have not signed off on the EU budget during their annual audits for what; 10 years?
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Old 09.12.2011, 17:19
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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Especially when you consider that independent auditors have not signed off on the EU budget during their annual audits for what; 10 years?
I think this point needs a bit of explanation: The rules under which the court of auditors can actually sign off on the budget implementation are so strict that it is almost impossible for them to ever achieve a sign off - even a small issue is enough to prevent them from doing so. If the same criteria was applied at national level, you would have the same outcome, here is a comment from the UK

"By comparison, the Auditor General for the United Kingdom stated that there were 500 separate accounts for the UK and "in the last year, I qualified 13 of the 500. If I had to operate the EU system, then, because I qualify 13 accounts, I might have to qualify the whole British central government expenditure". "

Just because they are unable to sign off on the final report, does not mean that they are not detecting and reporting and fraud etc... and those finding are being acted upon.
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Old 09.12.2011, 17:28
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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I think he has achieved some thing in that he has made a point strongly that despite the 21 dragging along behind FR and DE (Fin & Sweden referring to their parliaments) the basic fact remains that the economies are dissimilar, too dissimilar to move towards union. Its wrong, it wont work and someone needs to say it out loud
That may be your opinion, but that was not his objective! He went there to get an opt out option on the tobin tax are related issues concerning the City and that did not happen! He came a way with nothing and even worse he will not be at the table where it will be discussed going forward... It is very hard to influence the outcome if you are not even at the table!
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Old 09.12.2011, 17:30
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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I think he has achieved some thing in that he has made a point strongly that despite the 21 dragging along behind FR and DE (Fin & Sweden referring to their parliaments) the basic fact remains that the economies are dissimilar, too dissimilar to move towards union. Its wrong, it wont work and someone needs to say it out loud

As for the people agreeing or not one needs to question if they are positioned to answer the question any better than the politicos. After all we have sadly become a nation of people who dont read a paper, dont wantch that show on telly thats really dull, whats it called.....The News!

I have changed my mind and believe now that the Euro is the biggest folly of our times
To be fair it looks to me like Britain watched the Euro collapse due to the mismanagement of its finances by its own members and then suddenly the Euro members decide to make Britain help pay for the mess.

Putting the City outside of Europe when Europe implements the tobin tax will only force financial institutions to move to London I would imagine. Which has to be a good thing.
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Old 09.12.2011, 18:11
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

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I think this point needs a bit of explanation: The rules under which the court of auditors can actually sign off on the budget implementation are so strict that it is almost impossible for them to ever achieve a sign off - even a small issue is enough to prevent them from doing so. If the same criteria was applied at national level, you would have the same outcome, here is a comment from the UK

"By comparison, the Auditor General for the United Kingdom stated that there were 500 separate accounts for the UK and "in the last year, I qualified 13 of the 500. If I had to operate the EU system, then, because I qualify 13 accounts, I might have to qualify the whole British central government expenditure". "

Just because they are unable to sign off on the final report, does not mean that they are not detecting and reporting and fraud etc... and those finding are being acted upon.
Exactly they set up a system "that it is almost impossible for them to ever achieve a sign off" so they have a fine excuse for the accounts to be qualified every year.
& when they manage the Eurozone budgets i am sure they will pull the same trick
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Old 09.12.2011, 18:36
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Re: Not Europe, Brits divided. And they are outside of decision making. Europe is uni

it's really funny to see Britain giving lessons about financial regulations to Europe, fighting for the City. Most of it's banks were the first to blow up and it's hasn't yet recovered from the 2008 crisis. The £ trades at 1.17 and the economy is in shambles.
Cameron is held up by banking lobbies and is pathetic trying to show a brave face against "collapsing" Europe...
As a side note, you'll notice that news of Europe desintegrating often come from British media/companies....
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