Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 19.12.2011, 10:25
Lex's Avatar
Lex Lex is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zug
Posts: 312
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 257 Times in 138 Posts
Lex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond reputeLex has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
It's often said that the best way evil flourishes is for good men to sit by and do nothing.
I only wish Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot et al sat by, smoked cigars, finger painted and did nothing. Unfortunately they wanted to make the world 'better'.

Reminds me of that story about the chicken or egg.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Lex for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 19.12.2011, 10:35
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Do you think the troops should be proud of what happened there?
You are typically proud if you did something good, no?

I have seen some interviews with "common people" on the streets of Iraq. Bottom line which seemed quite understandable to me was "We have democracy now, but I am scared to go to the market as I never know if some attack happens".

Did their lives improve? Is there something achieved a soldier should be proud of?

The US military has a difficult history, but to put it short:
- most South Koreans are more than thankful that you guys stopped the communists improving and saving their lives. A soldier who did help to achieve this has something to be proud of.
- many Vietnamese were happy when you finally stopped to firebomb their country. Some were unhappy. Not sure if you should be proud oif it, probably no.
- in the first Iraq war was Kuwait happy when you came and rescued them from the invasion. Something to be proud of.

This war? Not so sure... if I knew what the actual mission was, it would be much easier to tell if it was accomplished.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 19.12.2011, 10:36
mojado's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 813
Groaned at 14 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 801 Times in 357 Posts
mojado has a reputation beyond reputemojado has a reputation beyond reputemojado has a reputation beyond reputemojado has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
That's exactly what my grandpa told me about his time in the Nazi-German Wehrmacht...
I had never seen this forum reach Wikipedia reference-linkGodwin's_law so quickly
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank mojado for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 19.12.2011, 10:41
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
I had never seen this forum reach Wikipedia reference-linkGodwin's_law so quickly
The topic of a super power losing an invasion was a bit closer than the average "Why don't they sell beers in Migros" threads.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 19.12.2011, 11:05
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 777
Groaned at 73 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,497 Times in 708 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
.........
........
This war? Not so sure... if I knew what the actual mission was, it would be much easier to tell if it was accomplished.
The war was going on for 8 years. If you don't know what the actual mission was then don't you feel that anything is already kind of wrong there?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 19.12.2011, 11:31
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 777
Groaned at 73 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,497 Times in 708 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Interesting numbers
A majority of Americans (56%) say the US has succeeded in achieving its goals in Iraq but 48% say the US made the right decision to invade Iraq.

more here
http://www.people-press.org/2011/11/...views-of-iraq/
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 19.12.2011, 11:44
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
The war was going on for 8 years. If you don't know what the actual mission was then don't you feel that anything is already kind of wrong there?
Sure. It felt VERY wrong from the beginning.

Short summary:
- The US is attacked on 09/11/01 by a group of Saudi extremists around Osama Bin Laden. I think there was never a similar wave of sympathy for the US as on the day of the attacks. Everyone felt with the victims families.
- The Bush administration for some reason sees a reason to invade Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia, the country where the terrorists and their funding is from. Till today some taboo to talk about in US politics. Probably cause the Saudi King makes good business with the Bush's. All media repeat in an unparalleled stupidity the claims for "Saddam as WMDs and is a threat for us" and "he has links to bin Laden".

Claim one: Saddam got his army from two sources, the US and the Russians. After losing the early 90s war can one expect the US to know exactly what he has. There was no threat, there were no WMDs. I will never forget the presentation Collin Powell gave in the UN with cartoon pictures on "mobile WMD labs". He is btw pretty ashamed of that himself by now: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-cia-curveball

Claim two: To believe that a religious extremist who believes that the world should become a Mulim empire serving Allah would work together with Saddam, a secular militarist who has repeatedly killed Muslims and collaborated with the US is so bizarre... I think that only people who have never set a foot on non-US soil and only watched Fox news in their lives could possibly believe it...

- the US and the "coalition of the willing" prepare for war. Rumsfeld starts to insult all countries that decide to not join them.

- the US invade Iraq and predictably run over it's military in no time. The most interesting part was not the actual fighting, but the way the US side managed the journalists and PR: Only pre-approved "embedded journalists" got access to info and were carefully screened what and how they write. Far too many happily joined the hooray brigade. A sad part for the "freedom" the US was preaching.

- war over, Iraq lies in ruins. Bush apparently expected the Iraquis to dance on the street and throw roses at the US army. He gives the now famous "mission accomplished" speech in the strong believe that the story will be over in months.

- Most didn't throw flowers. They threw stones instead. Iraq is a very complicated multi ethnic state where Saddam and his clan has successfully overthrown the majority for decades. Now the majority wants to pay them back (being shiites they get support from Iran). The Sunnies on the other hand won't give up power without a fight. Iraq sinks into violence for years. The US gets rougher and rougher in the way they handle the situation. In the end did they not win hearts and souls of the Iraqis but most are more likely to dance on the street once the US is out.

Not sure what part a soldier should be proud of. It was a military victory but a political desaster. Now there is some puppet installed and the US have it under control for the moment... but I predict that we will hear about conflicts in Iraq for decades to come.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 19.12.2011, 11:58
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 777
Groaned at 73 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,497 Times in 708 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Sure. It felt VERY wrong from the beginning.

Short summary:
.........
May I add that before the invasion Iraq suffered years of sanctions. Many people died as a result.

Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 19.12.2011, 12:11
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
May I add that before the invasion Iraq suffered years of sanctions. Many people died as a result.
Sorry, but that is a stupid argument. If you don't want people to die, let Iraq buy food and medicine with their oil. The truth is that nobody ever gave thing about civilian Iraqi lives. Especially not Bush or Saddam.

Till the day the US could not find those damn WMDs. None. So they needed another reason and suddenly continued to flock those "Saddam had a terrible human rights record". No doubt, he had. He was so evil that he even used poison gas against Kurds in his own country or against Iran in the 80s. But where exactly did he get the technology from again? Powell knew, cause he was national security advisor under Reagan who supplied Saddam with everything to destabilize the region...
And then: Which Arabian leader did have a half decent human rights record? Those allies of the US are in no way better. And setting up Guantanamo to fight against people who don't respect human rights would be funny if it was not so sad that the US lost their moral high ground so quickly.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 19.12.2011, 12:44
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 777
Groaned at 73 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,497 Times in 708 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, but that is a stupid argument. If you don't want people to die, let Iraq buy food and medicine with their oil. The truth is that nobody ever gave thing about civilian Iraqi lives. Especially not Bush or Saddam.

Till the day the US could not find those damn WMDs. None. So they needed another reason and suddenly continued to flock those "Saddam had a terrible human rights record". No doubt, he had. He was so evil that he even used poison gas against Kurds in his own country or against Iran in the 80s. But where exactly did he get the technology from again? Powell knew, cause he was national security advisor under Reagan who supplied Saddam with everything to destabilize the region...
And then: Which Arabian leader did have a half decent human rights record? Those allies of the US are in no way better. And setting up Guantanamo to fight against people who don't respect human rights would be funny if it was not so sad that the US lost their moral high ground so quickly.
I thought that because of the infrastructure damage a lot of people didn't have the clean water supply or sanitation systems any more. And because of the sanctions re-building these facilities was impossible or very difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 19.12.2011, 13:07
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
I thought that because of the infrastructure damage a lot of people didn't have the clean water supply or sanitation systems any more. And because of the sanctions re-building these facilities was impossible or very difficult.
Sanctions aren't some god given thing. They are driven by the security council and there mainly by the US. So if the US wanted to save Iraqui children, changing the sanctions would be probably easier than invading the country...
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 19.12.2011, 13:14
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 777
Groaned at 73 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,497 Times in 708 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Sanctions aren't some god given thing. They are driven by the security council and there mainly by the US. So if the US wanted to save Iraqui children, changing the sanctions would be probably easier than invading the country...
Absolutely! I am not arguing with you but only agreeing so far...
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 19.12.2011, 13:26
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 777
Groaned at 73 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,497 Times in 708 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, but that is a stupid argument. If you don't want people to die, let Iraq buy food and medicine with their oil. The truth is that nobody ever gave thing about civilian Iraqi lives. Especially not Bush or Saddam.
...
Here is the misunderstanding. I am not arguing with you. I simply added to your summary of events that before the invasion there were years of terrible UN sanctions that took a lot of lives.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 19.12.2011, 13:28
KeinFranzösisch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 2,198
Groaned at 63 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,549 Times in 1,115 Posts
KeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Interesting numbers
A majority of Americans (56%) say the US has succeeded in achieving its goals in Iraq but 48% say the US made the right decision to invade Iraq.

more here
http://www.people-press.org/2011/11/...views-of-iraq/
Americans have short memories. I blame buttered movie theater popcorn and internet porn.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank KeinFranzösisch for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 19.12.2011, 13:40
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,357
Groaned at 96 Times in 56 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Not sure what part a soldier should be proud of.
Probably the parts where they tried to make some good come out of the clusterfook that Bush started. Got many examples of this from friend and acquaintances who got deployed. Simply tossing them into the same bin as Nazis who were 'just following orders' is more than a tad offensive. Hate the politicians all you want though. At least they had a choice.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 19.12.2011, 13:45
KeinFranzösisch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 2,198
Groaned at 63 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,549 Times in 1,115 Posts
KeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Probably the parts where they tried to make some good come out of the clusterfook that Bush started.
They need to tell those stories then if that's really the case.
Every soldier I've ever met who was in Iraq just spews the same brainwashed rhetoric as the Republicans that sent them there.
And whenever a civilian says "Thanks for defending our freedoms," I have to hold back the vomit as I'm wondering "what freedoms, exactly, where being defended????"
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank KeinFranzösisch for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 19.12.2011, 15:24
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,910
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,189 Times in 3,402 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
What about declaring neutrality while mad men try to burn the world?
Mind you USA was neutral till there where attached by Japan, remember And made the big buck
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank cannut for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 19.12.2011, 16:18
HollidayG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kanton Zürich
Posts: 3,038
Groaned at 50 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,180 Times in 738 Posts
HollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputation
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Americans have short memories. I blame buttered movie theater popcorn and internet porn.
Internet porn is better than invading countries though....
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HollidayG for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 19.12.2011, 17:31
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
Simply tossing them into the same bin as Nazis who were 'just following orders' is more than a tad offensive.
I did not toss them in the same bin as some Nazi, but my grandpa. An absolutely not politically interested working class guy who had no choice but was drafted into the Wehrmacht as every other man. My friend who went to Afghanistan did so by choice, for the double salary, nothing else. And I do not buy that all US soldiers go to Iraq because they are patriots or believed in Bush. It was a way to make money for underprivileged Americans who cannot afford your crazy tuitions (or don't really have what it takes to go to college).

Even more so the mercenaries cause they got awesome day rates... comparing my grandpa to those warmonger would be an insult for every regular German soldier in WW2. Even the SS had at least an ideology and didn't comit their crimes only for money. Although especially blackwater apparently was infested with christian white supremacists. I guess that counts as a nazi-like ideology.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 19.12.2011, 17:45
HollidayG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kanton Zürich
Posts: 3,038
Groaned at 50 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,180 Times in 738 Posts
HollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputation
Re: US Troops leaving Iraq

Quote:
View Post
I did not toss them in the same bin as some Nazi, but my grandpa. An absolutely not politically interested working class guy who had no choice but was drafted into the Wehrmacht as every other man. My friend who went to Afghanistan did so by choice, for the double salary, nothing else. And I do not buy that all US soldiers go to Iraq because they are patriots or believed in Bush. It was a way to make money for underprivileged Americans who cannot afford your crazy tuitions (or don't really have what it takes to go to college).

Even more so the mercenaries cause they got awesome day rates... comparing my grandpa to those warmonger would be an insult for every regular German soldier in WW2. Even the SS had at least an ideology and didn't comit their crimes only for money. Although especially blackwater apparently was infested with christian white supremacists. I guess that counts as a nazi-like ideology.
Tuition is only expensive at private colleges. State universities are
very affordable. If you friend was enlisted in the army, then he
was required to go.

That was not such a great SS ideology, paid or not.

The similarities are that they both had a leader that misled the public
into believing something that was not true.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HollidayG for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
VAT back when leaving US irish_marmot Finance/banking/taxation 8 15.08.2011 11:15
Leaving CH for Canada - advise us please monikais General off-topic 6 06.06.2011 16:05
U.S. denies letting troops convert Afghans swissotter International affairs/politics 88 15.06.2010 18:30
pension dilemma leaving Switzerland for US ITAR Finance/banking/taxation 5 21.12.2007 10:35


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0