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  #41  
Old 30.12.2011, 01:39
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You're right, everything is the same: What the Scyths and the Sarmats did to those poor protoslavs! Outrageous!!
sorry, before my time......

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sorry, before my time......
whereas I was around for the other stuff

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  #42  
Old 30.12.2011, 01:56
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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sorry, before my time......
Oh, I get it now, in history, what counts is the universal measure "Marton's time". It all lightens up now.
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  #43  
Old 30.12.2011, 09:02
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So it is alright to talk about what happend 20 years ago? But 40 years ago is "a long time before 1991"! Sorry but stil cr*p.
What a lovely answer
Where do you get this from? It is alright to talk about anything you like even if it was a long time ago.
What exactly do you call cr*p?

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Oh, I get it now, in history, what counts is the universal measure "Marton's time". It all lightens up now.
Oh, I see

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  #44  
Old 31.12.2011, 00:04
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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What a lovely answer
Where do you get this from? It is alright to talk about anything you like even if it was a long time ago.
What exactly do you call cr*p?


Oh, I see
About "What exactly do you call cr*p?"

You cannot take an isolated incident & write "Soviet Union fell apart 20 years ago without violence... "

This is a grave insult to the memory of the very many brave people who gave their lives fighting for freedom in the preceding years & laid the groundwork for the Soviet Union to fall apart at that time.


Read & profit from some history books.
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  #45  
Old 31.12.2011, 00:26
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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Oh, I get it now, in history, what counts is the universal measure "Marton's time". It all lightens up now.
I didn't get this comment, either.

I think Marton's posts were far from lightening, actually pointing at a very very dark reality, and not so long ago.

We were not discussing ancient tribal squabbles, nor Neanderthals, etc. but an era of tragic Soviet terror, and that is something we all remember.

To mention things lightheartedly, as if it was actually USSR's doing, how cool and a "ok" things went, didn't seem corresponding with how grave the situation was for decades, and all the dark and violent, tragic events that lead to it. Goulags, anyone? My people were sent to radioactive mines, just to shut them up, work camps, prisons where they were kept in a tiny cell with no light and isolation for years. There were so many deaths left and right, unreported, eventhough it was not maybe during the actual revolution. But there were decades of hidden deaths, and of millions. The way things went makes me feel it was more matter of not being organized enough, not deliberate pacifism. It is important changes started, for sure.
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  #46  
Old 31.12.2011, 03:32
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

The soviets invented even new nations after the 1940 to justify their occupation, such as the "Moldavian" nation. Between 1940 and 1953 hundred of thousands of Romanians were deported from Bessarabia to Siberia or other places.The soviet experiments were horible. I am sorry to say that. Nothing was peaceful about that period.
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  #47  
Old 31.12.2011, 04:02
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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The soviets invented even new nations after the 1940 to justify their occupation, such as the "Moldavian" nation. Between 1940 and 1953 hundred of thousands of Romanians were deported from Bessarabia to Siberia or other places.The soviet experiments were horible. I am sorry to say that. Nothing was peaceful about that period.
But in my eyes it is exactly because of the cruelty of the Soviet regime, that make it is so remarkably that the break up of the SU did cause so few blood shed. I think the credit for this has to go to the reforms in the second half of the 80s, because they made, as at least as fare as I know, Russian Society much more open. In my opinion this was the reason, why the coup of the army did not succeed.
Although this may sound like a praise for Mr. Gorbatshow, we should not forget that he himself ordered Soviet tanks to enter the Capitals of the Baltic states , as they declared there independence.

Despite all this many former Soviet Republics would be better of, if military coup did not happen. Because then it would maybe have been possible to transform the Soviet
Union to a modern state at a more steady pace.

We should not forget that before the economic crises Russia's economic output only just had reached the level of 1990 (according to a newsweek article I read some time ago) with the difference, that wealth today is much more unequally distributed now, than then. So the average Russian probably was economically better off at the end of the Soviet era (Gorbatschow pretty much put an end to state terorisem then, too).
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  #48  
Old 31.12.2011, 04:51
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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But it would maybe have been possible to transform the Soviet Union to a modern state at a more steady pace.
That's the one thing that was just not possible. By definition. Centralization can only be central, and there can only be one centre. The political gravity holding it together must be strong enough otherwise, there is no alternative gravity to put it nicely together in a different way. In other words: if communism as an ideal is off the screen, there is no radar anymore at all.

The surprising part is that it was a purely political end. Not a cultural end. One of the greatest Sovjet specialist in France and a couple of others around the world, were pretty sure the Sovjet wouldn't last... but they gave the wrong reasons. Carrère D'Encausse and friends thought that the muslim republics would want to get more independent with a huge force power: demographics. Fact is that those republics are the ones that staid authoritarian and centralized. The power force necessary for a break loose was purely cultural: The Baltic republics can be called nationalistic, why not, but fact is that they see themselves as nordic, not eastern. To the Balts and the Estonians, the cultural links are to the west. Their cultural self awareness is purely European, not Russo-continental (Russia taken as a slavic continent). Even during Sovjet times, the Estonians called it the Russian occupation. The big mistake from Stalin's perspective is to have integrated the three Baltics into the Sovjet, because they understood themselves as independent nations like the other eastern European Warszawa pact countries. I call that Achilles heel.

In other words, the Sovjet had a crack, a weak spot from the start. History has shown that it was the Baltic republics, the definition and self-awareness of national identity throughout the generations. Stalin thought he was stronger than history, he failed. Eltsin understood that the only power he could have is within an independent Russia, that doesn't change very much for the guy in Moscow to be only Master of Russia rather than Master of all 15 republics. there is no sense of history in Eltsin, only sense of opportunity. His years in power prove the point: corruption is always an answer to void of power.
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  #49  
Old 31.12.2011, 05:25
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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That's the one thing that was just not possible. By definition. Centralization can only be central, and there can only be one centre. The political gravity holding it together must be strong enough otherwise, there is no alternative gravity to put it nicely together in a different way. In other words: if communism as an ideal is off the screen, there is no radar anymore at all.
I do not agree that a centrally governed state can not be democratic at the same time.
I mean look at France. Despite it being a Democracy most things are decided in Paris.

It is clear that the Baltic states would never have remained in a reformed USSR, given the opportunity to leave. There were Soviet republics, most notably Kazakhstan, which were fiercely opposed to the dissolution of the SU. Without the attempt for a coup by the military Gorbatshow and central government could have been able to keep together a great chunk of the USSR (with maybe the Baltics and Ukraine being a bit more independent), and establishing a structure which had closer ties between the different partners than the CIS.
Thus they may have been able to avoid the collapse of the Soviet industry, which was a result of the rapid change to Capitalism in the 90s, by gradually introducing more and more economic liberties (Gorbatschow did actually begin to do this in the 80s).
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  #50  
Old 31.12.2011, 08:15
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You address too many things in your post and I won't be able to give a structured feedback. Let's focus on industry & unemployment:

- industry: Libya has a lot of potential for the tourism/travel industry (long coast, huge beautiful desert, best roman ruins). Yet they have done nothing to develop infrastructure (hotels, restaurants etc...) and human resources/skills (language, etc..) to attract tourists. Big potential here.

- unemployment: do you know that there are a lot of jobs in the farming/agriculture sector in Morocco and Tunisia? But young people do not like these jobs...they want "easy" jobs that pay well in Europe.
Agriculture jobs ? with monthly wages of between CHF 150 and 300 you also in the Maghreb do not get too far. In offices, people earning between CHF 250 and CHF 1500 per month can afford a living, but exactly these jobs are scarce

Tourism in Libya ? Sure but look at Sharjah. Since the local Emir there decreed a total ban on alcohol, European tourists may arrive at Sharjah airport but then get to either Dubai or Ajman or Umm-el-Qiwain where alcohol-consumption in "touristic compounds" is allowed. Add to this that the legislation for visas etc under Khaddafi rule was such that it could not be the basis for a real tourism business.

Industry ? I am aware that it is fashionable to speak about tourism and aviation as "....-industry" but these sectors in reality are NOT "industry" but "services". Sure, if a country has some industry, the industry can supply the tourism-sector with many products needed

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Sure. Honest elections would do it for them. People have to make sure that the election process is fair and democratic.

When was the last time they were shooting before thinking?
Soviet Union fell apart 20 years ago without violence...
Sure, that relatively calm fading away of the USSR WAS surprising and caught me (I think most people) by surprise. And the collapse of the Comecon/WarsawPact system was the logical outcome. All this however was the final result of matters like to crackdown onto democratication-moves in EastGermany 1953, Hungary 1956, CSSR 1968 plus the intervention in Afghanistan, where the USSR tried to keep things together or even to expand its influence.

The protests in Russia up to now have been peaceful, so that it now depends on the Putin-Medwedew crew to keep it peaceful.

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  #51  
Old 31.12.2011, 12:41
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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That's the one thing that was just not possible. By definition. Centralization can only be central, and there can only be one centre. The political gravity holding it together...
I think occupation is occupation. Pushed centralization, not giving countries right to choose, is always based on economical reasons. So, if the countries wanted to be free afterwards, what seemed to be for cultural or historical reasons, not really buying it.

We wanted to be free for a lot more than cultural reasons. To stop economical drainage, stealing bullies. Since cash means freedom. Whatever philosophies occupants used to justify any countries that were annexed without giving them right to choose, communism, whatever, it always boils down to making economical profit on others.

The "peaceful" end of menace, does not surprise me. That might be cultural, being locked down under a horrific terror will make one cautious, so people were protesting carefully and the network was bulletproof. The system does not deserve any credit for lack of bloodshed, though, it was simply exhausted, or, the generals didn't see much chance or willingness, to yet again, suppress yet another upheaval, that were frequent past 50/70 years.
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  #52  
Old 31.12.2011, 13:12
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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About "What exactly do you call cr*p?"

You cannot take an isolated incident & write "Soviet Union fell apart 20 years ago without violence... "

This is a grave insult to the memory of the very many brave people who gave their lives fighting for freedom in the preceding years & laid the groundwork for the Soviet Union to fall apart at that time.


Read & profit from some history books.
This could be just an "isolated incident" and a page from a history book for you but for my family, myself and for millions of people this was a major and extremely dangerous event. We were scared at the time because we knew EXACTLY what this monster was capable of. And to the day I am very grateful that no bloodbath happened which was a miracle as well as a good will of Gorbachev personally. You calling it cr*p is an insult to me.
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Old 31.12.2011, 13:31
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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This could be just an "isolated incident" and a page from a history book for you but for my family, myself and for millions of people this was a major and extremely dangerous event. We were scared at the time because we knew EXACTLY what this monster was capable of. And to the day I am very grateful that no bloodbath happened which was a miracle as well as a good will of Gorbachev personally. You calling it cr*p is an insult to me.
It's great to hear voices from the actual land of the "monster", too, the perspective of the ones being occupied is a different one, maybe. So, thanks for sharing.

I think he did not mean it offensively, just pointed out that the monster had slayed gazillions, prior the actual event in similar attempts for freedom, and in countries different than your home. So, I think your "ok" peeved him as much as his "crap". It's all good.

I do not think it was a miracle, though. Maybe because my family and I took part in the revolution itself.

Gorbatchev for mod!

(by the way, I have a Russian flick on, it's on right now on Cine Polar if you have Bluewin TV)
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Old 31.12.2011, 14:29
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

MusicChick, where are you from? Your family was taking part in the revolution? Wow!
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Old 31.12.2011, 14:41
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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MusicChick, where are you from? Your family was taking part in the revolution? Wow!
It's obvious from my posts, if you read up, I will pm you.. There are too many internetz creeps out there.

Yeah, students started, then it took off within a day or two, then the streets were full. Mom did in 68, and she paid for it for having her career crippled, I was surprised we were let into high school because of that, usually they didn't let kids of active revolutionaries to study, or have their passports.

I mean, it was freaky, but when you are 15 you kinda don't think about the dangers, just run to save your life when you have to..I doubt the cops would actually really hit me. I looked at them innocently



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  #56  
Old 31.12.2011, 14:48
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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We should not forget that before the economic crises Russia's economic output only just had reached the level of 1990 (according to a newsweek article I read some time ago) with the difference, that wealth today is much more unequally distributed now, than then. So the average Russian probably was economically better off at the end of the Soviet era (Gorbatschow pretty much put an end to state terorisem then, too).
In the end of 70s a new wave of ration cards had started in the USSR. By the end of the Soviet era there were shortages of almost all basic products except bread. Practically in every part of the USSR the ration cards were the norm.
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Old 31.12.2011, 15:34
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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I do not agree that a centrally governed state can not be democratic at the same time..
I never said that. But communism without economical centralism is nothing. It's the exact contrary of France, actually (but that's not the topic).
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Old 31.12.2011, 15:48
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

from Wikipedia: URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union#1970.E2.80.931990"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union#1970.E2.80.931990[/URL]


Gorbatchev managed to roughly double the GDP of the SU within five years of coming to power, by introducing more economic liberties. I wonder how Russia would be off if this prcess continued instiead of being stopped in 1990. I mean politically the people could hardly have less liberties then they have today.
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Old 31.12.2011, 20:18
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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from Wikipedia: URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union#1970.E2.80.931990"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union#1970.E2.80.931990[/URL]


Gorbatchev managed to roughly double the GDP of the SU within five years of coming to power, by introducing more economic liberties. I wonder how Russia would be off if this prcess continued instiead of being stopped in 1990. I mean politically the people could hardly have less liberties then they have today.
I went to the Wikipedia site from your post and chose the Russian language. Something completely different came out. This is the Google translation without any corrections from me:

During perestroika intensified the negative trends in the economy. The inability of the political leadership of the country to respond adequately to negative symptoms (drop in oil prices in 1986, reduced revenues as a result of anti-alcohol campaign, the huge cost of destruction of the Chernobyl accident, military spending in Afghanistan, etc.) and a commitment to populist measures have resulted in to imbalances in fiscal and monetary systems, which resulted in the aggravation of the general economic situation.

GNP growth rates have declined during the XII Five-Year Plan (1986-1990) to 2.4% per year, against 4.8% during the X-th and 3.7% during the XI-th Five Year Plan, and in 1990 became negative [15]. And by the early 90-ies of the Soviet Government has lost control over the economy of the state, resulting in a number of reasons that turned out for the country's accelerating collapse of the Soviet Union. (See also: The "500 Days", 1980 in the Soviet economy)

From what I remember from 1990 -- the situation was really bad. Almost nothing was available in the shops, we had ration cards for the basic goods.


This is what Wikipedia has about the shortages of that time (Google translation without any correction):
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%...A1%D0%A1%D0%A0
Since the beginning of Perestroika, for residents of Moscow, to cut off from other cities deficits, has been introduced "card Muscovite." Example rules for coupons: 0.5 kg of cooked sausages per person per month, 400 g butter sandwich per person per month, two pollitrovki vodka per adult per month. Also on the card (stamp) sold sugar, tea, tobacco products. In some parts of mayonnaise and pastries. The range of manufactured goods - from soap, washing powder and matches up galoshes (Tashkent, 1991) and lingerie (Elec, 1991).

The names of coupons are also different from the straight-humiliating "card for bread," "pass on the potato" before diplomatically, streamlined - "Purchase Order" (Irbit, 1992), "Invitation to checkout" (Irkutsk, 1985), "The book Honeymoon "(Tashkent)," visiting card buyer "(Moscow, 1991)," Limit card "(Nizhny Novgorod, 1991). Well, somewhere, and with care: "Alcohol - the enemy of your health" (Pass the vodka, Barrow, 1991). [14]
..............
1980-1990
Tovarny deficit reached a peak during the period of "restructuring" of the Soviet economy. It should be a significant difference between the conditions of the early-mid 80's and last years of the Soviet Union, by virtue of the fact that in 1987-1990 were adopted numerous decisions completely unbalanced and poorly without an organized system of supplying the population. According to the recollections of eyewitnesses, a deficit in those days could be as follows:

Meat, cooked sausage and other meat products (RSFSR, with the exception of Moscow and Leningrad);
Organic coffee, cocoa powder;
Condensed milk, butter;
Stew
Chocolates and other confectionery products, chocolate;
Bananas (in the province, except for the closed cities and the national republics, seen only in pictures [source not specified 27 days]), oranges and other fruits imported;
Furniture (including so-called. "Wall");
Wallpaper, tiles, sanitary ware;
Carpets;
Crystal vases, kitchen sets;
Hosiery;
Toilet paper;
High-quality fiction, children's, historical, educational and technical books, current periodicals (newspapers and magazines);
Condoms and contraceptive tablets;
Drugs for the treatment of complex diseases;
Children's goods (shoes, clothes, toys, diapers, vests);
Shoes (quality and fashionable);
Eyeglass frames;
Color televisions, tape recorders and video recorders (Domestic - other was not commercially available);
Audio and video tapes for tape recorders;
Refrigerators, washing machines and vacuum cleaners;
Cars "VAZ", "Moskvich";
Vehicle parts, tires, etc. (leaving for a long time from the car, the driver took off janitors not to steal);
Soap, towels, toothpaste (late 80s);
Medicines, medical supplies and bedding in hospitals (for their sick relatives were getting in a roundabout way);
Tobacco (enterprising people assembled and sold by the piece and cigarette butts in liter cans from the late 80s);
Alcohol, colognes, perfumes (these goods deficit was caused by the beginning of the anti-alcohol campaign in 1985, which triggered a sharp increase in consumption of surrogates) - after the anti-alcohol campaign;
etc.
This list is a rough and very incomplete, but also depended on the region.

Last edited by leonie; 31.12.2011 at 20:30.
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Old 03.01.2012, 00:38
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Re: Arab spring turning into Russian winter?

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I went to the Wikipedia site from your post and chose the Russian language. Something completely different came out. This is the Google translation without any corrections from me:

During perestroika intensified the negative trends in the economy. The inability of the political leadership of the country to respond adequately to negative symptoms (drop in oil prices in 1986, reduced revenues as a result of anti-alcohol campaign, the huge cost of destruction of the Chernobyl accident, military spending in Afghanistan, etc.) and a commitment to populist measures have resulted in to imbalances in fiscal and monetary systems, which resulted in the aggravation of the general economic situation.

GNP growth rates have declined during the XII Five-Year Plan (1986-1990) to 2.4% per year, against 4.8% during the X-th and 3.7% during the XI-th Five Year Plan, and in 1990 became negative [15]. And by the early 90-ies of the Soviet Government has lost control over the economy of the state, resulting in a number of reasons that turned out for the country's accelerating collapse of the Soviet Union. (See also: The "500 Days", 1980 in the Soviet economy)

From what I remember from 1990 -- the situation was really bad. Almost nothing was available in the shops, we had ration cards for the basic goods.


This is what Wikipedia has about the shortages of that time (Google translation without any correction):
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%...A1%D0%A1%D0%A0
Since the beginning of Perestroika, for residents of Moscow, to cut off from other cities deficits, has been introduced "card Muscovite." Example rules for coupons: 0.5 kg of cooked sausages per person per month, 400 g butter sandwich per person per month, two pollitrovki vodka per adult per month. Also on the card (stamp) sold sugar, tea, tobacco products. In some parts of mayonnaise and pastries. The range of manufactured goods - from soap, washing powder and matches up galoshes (Tashkent, 1991) and lingerie (Elec, 1991).

The names of coupons are also different from the straight-humiliating "card for bread," "pass on the potato" before diplomatically, streamlined - "Purchase Order" (Irbit, 1992), "Invitation to checkout" (Irkutsk, 1985), "The book Honeymoon "(Tashkent)," visiting card buyer "(Moscow, 1991)," Limit card "(Nizhny Novgorod, 1991). Well, somewhere, and with care: "Alcohol - the enemy of your health" (Pass the vodka, Barrow, 1991). [14]
..............
1980-1990
Tovarny deficit reached a peak during the period of "restructuring" of the Soviet economy. It should be a significant difference between the conditions of the early-mid 80's and last years of the Soviet Union, by virtue of the fact that in 1987-1990 were adopted numerous decisions completely unbalanced and poorly without an organized system of supplying the population. According to the recollections of eyewitnesses, a deficit in those days could be as follows:

Meat, cooked sausage and other meat products (RSFSR, with the exception of Moscow and Leningrad);
Organic coffee, cocoa powder;
Condensed milk, butter;
Stew
Chocolates and other confectionery products, chocolate;
Bananas (in the province, except for the closed cities and the national republics, seen only in pictures [source not specified 27 days]), oranges and other fruits imported;
Furniture (including so-called. "Wall");
Wallpaper, tiles, sanitary ware;
Carpets;
Crystal vases, kitchen sets;
Hosiery;
Toilet paper;
High-quality fiction, children's, historical, educational and technical books, current periodicals (newspapers and magazines);
Condoms and contraceptive tablets;
Drugs for the treatment of complex diseases;
Children's goods (shoes, clothes, toys, diapers, vests);
Shoes (quality and fashionable);
Eyeglass frames;
Color televisions, tape recorders and video recorders (Domestic - other was not commercially available);
Audio and video tapes for tape recorders;
Refrigerators, washing machines and vacuum cleaners;
Cars "VAZ", "Moskvich";
Vehicle parts, tires, etc. (leaving for a long time from the car, the driver took off janitors not to steal);
Soap, towels, toothpaste (late 80s);
Medicines, medical supplies and bedding in hospitals (for their sick relatives were getting in a roundabout way);
Tobacco (enterprising people assembled and sold by the piece and cigarette butts in liter cans from the late 80s);
Alcohol, colognes, perfumes (these goods deficit was caused by the beginning of the anti-alcohol campaign in 1985, which triggered a sharp increase in consumption of surrogates) - after the anti-alcohol campaign;
etc.
This list is a rough and very incomplete, but also depended on the region.
Now, you have to realize this. While the USSR had been under Communist rule since 1917, those countries who at the end of WW-II became Communist, had been relatively free, even democratic as Czechoslovakia, between 1920 and 1938 (and again after 1945 for two or three years). And this means that the adults in these countries could well remember democracy and free enterprise and some freedom of speech.- Add to this that the Empires of Germany and Austria-Hungary were absolute monarchies but never as oppressive as the Russian Empire (Ochrana) or as totalitarian as the USSR (KGB/GRU)
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