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Old 09.01.2012, 11:21
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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The 9/11 ones? What do they have to do with any of the guys in Guantanamo? The one guy who was involved in the attacks was not brought there but to a completely normal US court within the US. Because for him there was enough proof to give him a fair trial.
Victims of terrorism are not necessarily dead, nowadays everyone is a 'victim' of terrorism and i hate to tell you but it includes you.
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  #42  
Old 09.01.2012, 11:31
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Maybe you have missed my point, of course the water bottle security is PR. The point I am making is that it is because of terrorism that I can not do that, its because of terrorism that I have to take my shoes off going through security, it is because of terrorism that I need to to go through a x-ray machine, it is because of terroism that i can not just walk into an Orange shop in Zurich and buy a pay as you go mobile phone without proving I live in here.
Actually, it is become of an gross over-reaction to terrorism, not because of terrorism itself.

Tom
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Old 09.01.2012, 11:37
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Victims of terrorism are not necessarily dead, nowadays everyone is a 'victim' of terrorism and i hate to tell you but it includes you.
This is a myth of the omnipresent enemy... The concept is not new.
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Old 09.01.2012, 11:39
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Actually, it is become of an gross over-reaction to terrorism, not because of terrorism itself.

Tom
Ok so lets take the deterrents away, what happens then, there will be planes falling out the skies.
It is not a 'gross over-reaction' it is a deterrent. What I will say though is that it is used incorrectly as a PR exercise, look at what we are doing' however it is necessary, to say it is a gross over-reaction is very naive.
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Old 09.01.2012, 11:42
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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This is a myth of the omnipresent enemy... The concept is not new.
Why is it a myth?
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  #46  
Old 09.01.2012, 11:42
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Well, you have a bunch of guys who may or may not be terrorists. Should you let them go and wait to see if you were right or not?

On one hand, you may have an innocent in prison.

On the other hand, you may have a terrorist free to kill many more innocents.

Do you think the innocent one in prison has more value than those innocents outside safe from the terrorist one?
You make the assumption these people are guilty and/or active terrorists. I would suggest that is not a safe assumption to make given the circumstances of some of these people's detainment.

Western countries do not yet have a Pre-Crime department or policy. Until such time, those holding you captive need to prove your crime. If you have not committed a crime, then release the person.

The majority - if not all - Western countries operate innocent until proven guilty. Based on the amount of mistrials, errors and set-ups, long may this system last.

Double standard is what it looks like, double standard is what it is.
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Old 09.01.2012, 11:45
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Can you point me in the directions to the facts behind this please?
Sure. The Washington post has a list of detainees, so does Wikipedia and some others. None is probably 100% complete or correct, but even if you ad some percent of error margin is the result more than clear:

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775 detainees have been brought to Guantanamo. Most of these have been released without charge. The United States government continues to classify many of these released detainees as "enemy combatants". As of January 2012, 171 detainees remain at Guantanamo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Bay_detainees
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Victims of terrorism are not necessarily dead, nowadays everyone is a 'victim' of terrorism and i hate to tell you but it includes you.
I have been way more affected by governments than by Muslim extremists. But it is easier for governments to spread panic about terrorists than to solve the real problems. You know, the type you can measure. Failed medical policies have killed far more people in the world than any terrorist will ever achieve, but that is too complicated for Fox News. (and probably "socialist" or something...)
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Old 09.01.2012, 11:52
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Sure. The Washington post has a list of detainees, so does Wikipedia and some others. None is probably 100% complete or correct, but even if you ad some percent of error margin is the result more than clear:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Bay_detainees


I have been way more affected by governments than by Muslim extremists. But it is easier for governments to spread panic about terrorists than to solve the real problems. You know, the type you can measure. Failed medical policies have killed far more people in the world than any terrorist will ever achieve, but that is too complicated for Fox News. (and probably "socialist" or something...)
I do not believe all that is written in the media.
I am not disagreeing that there are certainly some innocent people caught up in Guantanamo but unfortunately as i have said early innocent people get caught up on both sides.

Of course you can take this debate into the 'how bad the worlds governing bodies are, that will never change, however governments do not want you dead,terrorists do.
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Old 09.01.2012, 11:58
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither- Ben Franklin.


Please can someone tell me the difference between militarism and terrorism?


For every one "terrorist" killed ten take his place. Think about that, use a calculator if you need.
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:02
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Why is it a myth?
Making a successful terrorist attack is very easy. The fact that there is not so many of them in the last years shows that at least on the American soil there is practically no terrorists. But for years we hear about the terror threats, orange alerts etc which keep public in fear. The methods that are used to prevent the terror attacks seem completely irrelevant. Do you feel safer when you surrender you drinking water before entering the plane?
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:12
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Making a successful terrorist attack is very easy. The fact that there is not so many of them in the last years shows that at least on the American soil there is practically no terrorists.

Right on. In ten years the terrorists have gone from a failed shoe bomb to rather hilarious underwear episode. We are spending trillions and sacrificing thousands of U.S soldiers to stop people who cant even blow their own balls.
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:19
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Think of it another way; most of these prisoners are brain washed warriors,
Actually... that is pure conjecture.

Who are these prisoners? do you have a listing of every inmate in there, the charge of their alleged crime and the evidence against them?

Precisely. You do not. None of us does. We only take the government at their word that they are detaining "terrorists" in Guantanamo, although NONE of them has had a trial. They are all guilty until proven innocent, which is not what the American justice system is about.

When President Obama took office, his first Executive Order issued 22 Jan 2009, was to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay. (note, the military base would remain open). The Republicans raised the question then, where would the "terrorists" held there go? Once moved to American soil, they'd have to actually be tried... and FAIRLY... and TIMELY... and once found not guilty (because there isn't any evidence) they'd have to be released... and then where would they go? Well... they'd have to be turned loose on the streets of KANSAS! Oh dear Lord, we can't have that, now can we? We can't turn TERRORISTS loose in Kansas!!!! (even though they haven't actually been convicted of being terrorists)

Nevertheless, the American public believed the Republican fear mongering that, if Guantanamo closed, that there would be terrorists set loose by Obama running amock on the streets killing everybody and suicide bombing Gymborees.

And thus... the prison remains open, and numerous detainees remain imprisoned, still without having been tried, fairly, with evidence presented against them.

Yet still, people believe that they actually are TERRORISTS... or as you put it... "brain washed warriors." So I pose this question instead:

"Who among us is really brain-washed?"
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:19
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Right on. In ten years the terrorists have gone from a failed shoe bomb to rather hilarious underwear episode. We are spending trillions and sacrificing thousands of U.S soldiers to stop people who cant even blow their own balls.
Also sacrificing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Isn't this exactly what we hate the terrorists for?
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:27
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Maybe you have missed my point, of course the water bottle security is PR.

That's not for "PR". It's because of the August 2006 alleged plot to use liquid explosives to blow up transatlantic flights.

Even though it's quite easy to distinguish explosive liquids from water, toothpaste, and peanut butter, those things are still prohibited in carry-on baggage (but allowed in your checked baggage -- which makes no sense) because the airport security isn't entrusted to use their brains to distinguish the difference, but only to recognize solids and liquids, which sometimes they even fail at that.

Speaking of things allowed and not allowed... knives of all lengths have been banned since 9/11... but knitting needles continue to be allowed.
What purposed does that serve?

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The threat of terrorism is real and still happening not just
some McCarthy era paranoia.

There have been several instances of these sick s trying
to blow up public buildings in the US.

The US let muslim peoples from many countries come to
the US, and several of them have tried terrorist acts.
Like what??? And who? Sorry, but you sound like a Xenophobe.
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:29
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Also sacrificing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Isn't this is exactly what we hate the terrorists for?

Times that by ten and you have the current number of "terrorists"

More like people defending their land against a occupying force. That's what I would do if I was born and raised in one of the many lands that the U.S is indiscriminately dropping bombs on.
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:33
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Even though it's quite easy to distinguish explosive liquids from water, toothpaste, and peanut butter, those things are still prohibited in carry-on baggage (but allowed in your checked baggage -- which makes no sense) because the airport security isn't entrusted to use their brains to distinguish the difference, but only to recognize solids and liquids, which sometimes they even fail at that.
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:33
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Making a successful terrorist attack is very easy. The fact that there is not so many of them in the last years shows that at least on the American soil there is practically no terrorists. But for years we hear about the terror threats, orange alerts etc which keep public in fear. The methods that are used to prevent the terror attacks seem completely irrelevant. Do you feel safer when you surrender you drinking water before entering the plane?
I think that is pretty naive, just because there are no attacks does not mean there are no terrorists, pre 9/11 I am sure you would have answered the same, then up pops a terrorist cell and flies a couple of planes into the building.
I can't speak for the US but i know that in the UK there are raids on suspected terrorist cells quite often and there are arrests under the prevention of terrorism, so the threat is there and it is a real threat.

However I do agree and as I have said already, governments to use it as a PR exercise which is wrong, although on the other hand it could be seen as 'keeping the public awareness high'.
We must keep the deterrents in place, i.e. water bottles going through security otherwise the terrorists will have a free run.

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That's not for "PR". It's because of the August 2006 alleged plot to use liquid explosives to blow up transatlantic flights.

Even though it's quite easy to distinguish explosive liquids from water, toothpaste, and peanut butter, those things are still prohibited in carry-on baggage (but allowed in your checked baggage -- which makes no sense) because the airport security isn't entrusted to use their brains to distinguish the difference, but only to recognize solids and liquids, which sometimes they even fail at that.

Speaking of things allowed and not allowed... knives of all lengths have been banned since 9/11... but knitting needles continue to be allowed.
What purposed does that serve?
I have said it is a deterrent and it has to remain in place however governments do use it as a 'look at what we are doing' type of PR exercise.

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Right on. In ten years the terrorists have gone from a failed shoe bomb to rather hilarious underwear episode. We are spending trillions and sacrificing thousands of U.S soldiers to stop people who cant even blow their own balls.
Hilarious? Would not have been hilarious if the bomb had gone off would it.

Last edited by jrspet; 09.01.2012 at 13:04. Reason: Merging of successive posts - using of the MultiQuote feature is suggested
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:37
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Hilarious? Would not have been hilarious if the bomb had gone off would it.

F.F.S Multiquote!
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:39
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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I do not believe all that is written in the media.
I am not disagreeing that there are certainly some innocent people caught up in Guantanamo but unfortunately as i have said early innocent people get caught up on both sides.
You do not need to trust the media, all lists are based on DoD publications. And again: give or take some 50 cases, the MAJORITY of people who have ever been to Guantanamo was released without charges.

That does not mean that the proof did not convince the judge and that they maybe are still guilty. It means that the facts were so weak that even the government themsleves knew they had no chance at court and did not even try!

These lists are facts presented by people you seem to trust more than I do, so simply accept it: The majority of guantanamo detainees is proven not guilty. They probably didn't like the US before and might have a slight bias after getting tortured... but they are not terrorists. Most of the other half have never even be claimed to be terrorists, they are "combatants" - people that fought against US troops in Afghanistan. That is not somebody blowing up a passenger plane, but somebody who sided with the Taleban regime. A simply foot soldier. Like them or not, they do not deserve what the US did to them... nobody does deserve the torture not even real terrorists.
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Old 09.01.2012, 12:40
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Hilarious? Would not have been hilarious if the bomb had gone off would it.
It did go off. He burned himself quite badly.

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