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  #81  
Old 09.01.2012, 14:57
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Would you be happy for Mr Nil to be dragged away, imprisoned and tortured because he's a bit dark, a bit muslim, and once had a passing chat with the wrong person? Would you value him? Could you prove he's innocent?
I think Nil would have to know whether that wrong person was an ex or a militant... the answer might vary...
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  #82  
Old 09.01.2012, 14:57
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Again, I am sure these were the thoughts of some of the victims of 9/11, London bombings etc.
And not to forget the IRA, etc.

Yet I don't recall everyone getting as paranoid because of their all too real threat.

Tom
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  #83  
Old 09.01.2012, 14:59
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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The thing is I have never said on the thread I am for or against Guantanamo, posters jumpt to the wrong conclusion and the reason for this is I am undecided as I refuse to believe the media side of the story and lets face it that's all we have.
Yes of course there has been innocent people locked up as I have said previously, unfortunately innocent people are caught up in wars through mistakes.
My point is that terrorist aim to disrupt normal everyday life and knowingly kill innocent people, they are not making mistakes.
BonBon, you are deploying the classic "UTH2008 defence", used in countless homeopathy discussions: "I'm defending a position I don't believe in just to show you what an open mind I have."

Just so you know.

Last edited by Carlos R; 09.01.2012 at 17:03.
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  #84  
Old 09.01.2012, 15:00
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Now that was funny. LMAO
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Keep drinking the kool-aid.

Tom
Excellent answers to a debate.

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And not to forget the IRA, etc.

Yet I don't recall everyone getting as paranoid because of their all too real threat.

Tom
'Don't leave baggage unattended'
This message was being broadcast in the UK long before 9/11.

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BonBon, you are deploying the classic "UTH2008" defence, used in countless homeopathy discussions: "I'm defending a position I don't believe in just to show you what an open mind I have."

Just so you know.
Why? Because I choose not to comment on something I do not have the facts for?

Last edited by jrspet; 09.01.2012 at 15:08. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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  #85  
Old 09.01.2012, 15:07
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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'Don't leave baggage unattended'
This message was being broadcast in the UK long before 9/11.
So?

Personally, I felt much safer when I was allowed to carry my knives on the plane with me (Swiss knife, plus Leatherman).

Tom
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Old 09.01.2012, 15:10
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Why? Because I choose not to comment on something I do not have the facts for?
I said what you are doing, I didn't comment on why. That's for you to know and me not to give a .... about.
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  #87  
Old 09.01.2012, 15:12
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Now that was funny. LMAO
This is not so funny People fall prey to propaganda ...

And they vote too.
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  #88  
Old 09.01.2012, 16:29
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Just out of interest. For those defending some of the actions regarding Guantanamo. How many of our freedoms should we give up to be ''safe''?

Should we ban all liquids and all electrical devices from flights?

ban bags from public transport? Force us to use them nacked? (Would've possibly stopped the Madrid, London and Attempted Germany attacks)

Have all phones, computers hacked, letters read? (I mean those who've got nothing to hide have nothing to fear right?)

Police check points on all cars entering city centres? (Could've stopped the Norway bombing and the attempted Times Square attack)

Do away with being innocent until being proven guilty. I mean before we take the risk and letting a terrorist out he better prove to us that he's definitely not one right?

So how far should governments go?
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  #89  
Old 09.01.2012, 16:43
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Just out of interest. For those defending some of the actions regarding Guantanamo. How many of our freedoms should we give up to be ''safe''?
All of them. I would rather live without constant restrictions than have some faceless government employee making choices for me. I have to live with the politicians I elect for daily business such as defense, foreign policy etc. but I'll be damned if I need them to take away my bottle of Evian for a flight to Paris.

If you want to be paranoid, feel free, just in your own world, not in mine. Flying has become an utterly unpleasant experience thanks not so much to the Taliban, but because of the overreaction of grey bureaucrats in taking away my liberties. The terrorists have already won psychologically because of the ways our lives have become more restrictive.

No one is going to tell you officially that your life is at permanent risk all the time, but it kind of is anyway. I'm advocating more self determination and free will, keeping your wits about you is your responsibility not the government's.
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  #90  
Old 09.01.2012, 16:49
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Assassin. I think you might have misunderstood my point.

I agree with you. I wrote how many more freedoms we should give up rather than how many restrictions.

If people think Americas actions are fair enough, it would interest me where they draw the line
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  #91  
Old 09.01.2012, 16:55
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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And yet, I agree with Treverus. In my opinion, these might not be the most likeable fellows, but they are innocent until proven guilty. If they are prisoners of war, treat them as such with a fair (military or otherwise) trial. Guantanamo and similar structures are an abomination and an insult to civil society.
this whole thread boils down to this for me.

yes, al qaeda and taliban fighters are, from a legal perspective, a new phenomenon legally. Theyre not soldiers. Theyre not just criminals, theyre in this in between phase, for which the US legal institutions have no precedent (although i wonder why that is, wouldnt the Viet Cong have been the same, as they too were not soldiers of a state officially even though they were directed by the north vietnamese military?)

that something like gitmo was set up in the hysteria of the post 9-11 bush era makes a perverse sort of sense; the US overreacted in every possible way so this, while not excusing it, kinda explains it. That its been there for 10 years now is shame for us. There is no excuse.

Osama took a bullet to the face fired by a soldier of the US military last year, and that made me happy. Even though he's dead, he sure seems to've won on many levels he probably never even imagined.

From the overreaction we had to 9-11, iraq, the tens of thousands of innocent iraqis killed by our military in the name of responding to deaths of 2ooo of our civilians (which ended up being a false premise, oops, sorry, our bad), the mismanagment of the afghan campaign (the only morally justifiable front in the "wrrr on trrrr", the bankrupting our of country and its reputation, the militarization of the civilian police force and curtailment of our civil liberties when travelling and protesting in the name of homeland security, to the newly drafted legislation allowing the detainment of US citizens... id say he did more to hurt us then he ever imagined.
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  #92  
Old 09.01.2012, 17:07
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Osama took a bullet to the face fired by a soldier of the US military last year, and that made me happy. Even though he's dead, he sure seems to've won on many levels he probably never even imagined.

From the overreaction we had to 9-11, iraq, the tens of thousands of innocent iraqis killed by our military in the name of responding to deaths of 2ooo of our civilians (which ended up being a false premise, oops, sorry, our bad), the mismanagment of the afghan campaign (the only morally justifiable front in the "wrrr on trrrr", the bankrupting our of country and its reputation, the militarization of the civilian police force and curtailment of our civil liberties when travelling and protesting in the name of homeland security, to the newly drafted legislation allowing the detainment of US citizens... id say he did more to hurt us then he ever imagined.
Actually the US foreign adventures didn't start with 9/11. Osama was not the cause of these adventures but the product. He was armed by US in the 80s

Last edited by leonie; 09.01.2012 at 17:43.
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  #93  
Old 09.01.2012, 17:09
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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All of them. I would rather live without constant restrictions than have some faceless government employee making choices for me. I have to live with the politicians I elect for daily business such as defense, foreign policy etc. but I'll be damned if I need them to take away my bottle of Evian for a flight to Paris.

If you want to be paranoid, feel free, just in your own world, not in mine. Flying has become an utterly unpleasant experience thanks not so much to the Taliban, but because of the overreaction of grey bureaucrats in taking away my liberties. The terrorists have already won psychologically because of the ways our lives have become more restrictive.

No one is going to tell you officially that your life is at permanent risk all the time, but it kind of is anyway. I'm advocating more self determination and free will, keeping your wits about you is your responsibility not the government's.
Great post.

To dismiss the threat, like some have done is naive.
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Old 09.01.2012, 17:18
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Here is the article describing some legal aspecs of Guantanamo. Looks like nobody knows what to do with these prisoners...

http://www.thenation.com/article/165...s-and-counting
.......
With President Obama’s signing of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) on New Year’s Eve, the prison is sure to be with us—and its prisoners sure to continue in their legal limbo—for the indefinite future.

.........


In provisions recently renewed in the NDAA, Congress has barred any transfer of Guantánamo detainees to a US prison, even for criminal trial, and radically restricted the president’s authority to transfer detainees to foreign countries, essentially requiring impossible guarantees that they won’t ever pose a threat to the United States. As a result, even though more than half of the remaining detainees—eighty-nine of 171—have been fully cleared for release by a joint review conducted by the military, CIA, FBI and the Department of Homeland Security, they remain stuck there. Locking up people we concede need not be held is the very definition of arbitrary detention, but that has become the norm at Guantánamo.
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Old 09.01.2012, 17:20
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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To dismiss the threat, like some have done is naive.
Or astute, it depends on one's age and life experience.

How old are you?

Tom
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Old 09.01.2012, 17:28
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Regarding the liquid restrictions on planes. Can anyone explain the logic of this? Your allowed liquids in containers up to 150ml. Your allowed as much containers that fit in a 1l plastic bag.

Are terrorists not intelligent enough to realise they can pour all the liquids into a 1 l bag to have 1 l of explosives. Or if the plastic bag isn't suitable enough (I wouldn't know I'm not a terrorist, honest!) they can buy a 1.5l whiskey bottle in duty free and fill it up with explosives.

The restrictions aren't a deterrent it's just a PR gag for the governments to show they're doing something against the threat and giving certain citizens a false sense of security.
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Old 09.01.2012, 17:37
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Or astute, it depends on one's age and life experience.

How old are you?

Tom
I imagine older than you.

I will repeat again. I am sure the victims of 9/11, London bombings etc also believed there was no threat.

As I have said the threat is exaggerated and the water bottle as an example is pretty much a PR stunt but to dismiss the threat is naive and sadly I will only be proved right after the next attack.
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Old 09.01.2012, 17:46
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

So what do you suggest we do? I don't really want to live my life like an Israeli in the north of their country waiting for the unguided rockets to slam into my life.

Terrorism isn't conventional war where you send up some F-15s on alert and flex your muscles. Terrorism is sneaky, unpredictable and nasty by definition. And we all know that because these days the West's counter-insurgency teams fight the same way, down and dirty.
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Old 09.01.2012, 17:58
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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I imagine older than you.
My eldest child (albeit step) just turned 37 today, and I'll bet even his younger brother is older than you!

Tom
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Old 09.01.2012, 18:06
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

"The documents, which date from 2002 to 2008, also unveil shocking accounts of innocent people, including farmers, chefs and drivers who were sold to US forces."

CHEFS??!!!!
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