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  #101  
Old 09.01.2012, 18:06
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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So what do you suggest we do? I don't really want to live my life like an Israeli in the north of their country waiting for the unguided rockets to slam into my life.

Terrorism isn't conventional war where you send up some F-15s on alert and flex your muscles. Terrorism is sneaky, unpredictable and nasty by definition. And we all know that because these days the West's counter-insurgency teams fight the same way, down and dirty.
What do I suggest? If could answer that I would not be posting on here

It is difficult because some might not like to hear it but it is not all about politics or the US, it involves religion and when something involves religion sometimes there is no negotiation, all you have to do is look at Northern Ireland for that, how many years that went on for and sadly it is still going on as recently as last week, even after all the peace agreements.

Unfortunately 'joe public' can only hope that the military and intelligence services throughout the world are doing there job.
In my opinion they are, there are deterrents and blocks in place to prevent more attacks than what there is, however sadly not enough to stop them.
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  #102  
Old 09.01.2012, 18:08
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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My eldest child (albeit step) just turned 37 today, and I'll bet even his younger brother is older than you!

Tom
Well fortunately I am not old enough to have a 37 year old but sadly I am certainly older than that.
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  #103  
Old 09.01.2012, 18:14
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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So what do you suggest we do? ...
Stop making the world safe for McDonald's -- this will certainly reduces risk of terrorism. But then we probably will not have McDonald's any more

Thomas Friedman said that:

"The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald’s cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley’s technologies to flourish is called the US Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps."
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  #104  
Old 09.01.2012, 18:30
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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"The documents, which date from 2002 to 2008, also unveil shocking accounts of innocent people, including farmers, chefs and drivers who were sold to US forces."

CHEFS??!!!!
Of course. Think about all those knives they must own.
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  #105  
Old 09.01.2012, 18:44
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Actually the US foreign adventures didn't start with 9/11. Osama was not the cause of these adventures but the product. He was armed by US in the 80s

indirectly, yes. he was never on the US payroll per se the way some of the northern alliance guys were. according to the 9/11 report and "ghost warriors" (a book on the US involvement in Afghanistan from 1979 till sept10 2001), most of the US money went to the pakistani secret service initially, who then funded a number of groups, including his. then later after the soviets left most of the US efforts were spent trying to buy back stingers and funding the northern alliance.

its kind of legal hairsplitting, but its not quite as straightfwd as the US funding of say, saddam hussein against iran.

on a side note, why do govts continue to subscribe to the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality? it seems to come back to haunt as often as not.

- vickers bought shell fuses from krupp prior to ww1 then used them to kill german soldiers in ww1 (and paid up royalties after the war)

- krupp sold coastal artillery to norway in the 19th century which was used to sink german troop transports in 1940

- the brits armed jewish settlers in palestine to fight the turks, only to have these tactics used against them in the 40s

- the US armed saudi arabia to the teeth with state of the art hardware only to have it used against the US when the wahhabists overthrew the house of saud in 2020... oh wait that hasnt happened yet
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  #106  
Old 09.01.2012, 18:49
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Stop making the world safe for McDonald's -- this will certainly reduces risk of terrorism. But then we probably will not have McDonald's any more

Thomas Friedman said that:

"The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald’s cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley’s technologies to flourish is called the US Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps."
The only thing that springs to mind after this comment is the widely respected philosopher Dylan Moran:

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  #107  
Old 09.01.2012, 18:57
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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It is difficult because some might not like to hear it but it is not all about politics or the US, it involves religion and when something involves religion sometimes there is no negotiation, all you have to do is look at Northern Ireland for that, how many years that went on for and sadly it is still going on as recently as last week, even after all the peace agreements.

Unfortunately 'joe public' can only hope that the military and intelligence services throughout the world are doing there job.
In my opinion they are, there are deterrents and blocks in place to prevent more attacks than what there is, however sadly not enough to stop them.
The Northern Ireland conflict was simplified down to religion so that the press could generalise for the simpletons in the general public. There's a quite a few irish rebels who were protestant for example. It was more to do with different heritages and cultures.

For me the Problem with parts of the Islamic world is not the religion rather the culture. There are plenty of muslims who live peacefully among us and who even fought for America in the middle east. America has tried to force it's culture upon foreign countries. They have not surprisingly taken kindly to this.

I find since your defending the actions of the western governments I feel it is a legitimate question to ask where is the limit for you? How far should a country go to protect your ''safety'' ? I've listed some examples further up to get you going.

Another example to add is Menezes. Is it alright for police to kill first, ask questions later anyone who looks like a terrorist? (By the way if he was naked he wouldn't have got shot)
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  #108  
Old 09.01.2012, 21:51
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Sorry I had to step out today... lovely debate.

But nobody talked about why Afghanistan is still going on, now in its 11th year:

I present you this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

Is this the reason? is it real? or is it just Wikipedia malarky?
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  #109  
Old 09.01.2012, 22:19
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Another terrorist plot uncovered

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-charge-ex...175436760.html

Perhaps there is a place in Guantanamo for him.
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  #110  
Old 10.01.2012, 00:53
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Sorry I had to step out today... lovely debate.

But nobody talked about why Afghanistan is still going on, now in its 11th year:

I present you this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

Is this the reason? is it real? or is it just Wikipedia malarky?
At last, the pipeline conspiracy!!! this is an interesting one, I was following it for a while. There is a theory that most of the US foreign meddling of the last few decades is connected to the control of the pipelines. I remember I was following the development of the Orange revolution in Ukraine. Pipeline conspiracy theorists connected it to the Odessa-Brody pipeline, and the story fits well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa%...Brody_pipeline

Every other "colored" revolution of the former Soviet republics could be explained in terms of pipelines as well.

Now, TAPI. I actually remember that in the early 2001 very negative news reports from Afganistan started to come. The destruction of the Buddha statues, the treatment of women ... It is believed that shortly before this time Osama bin Laden had advised the Taliban to reject the US company UNOCAL and get the deal with Bridas, Argentinian company. And this was all of course about building the pipeline.

The conspiracy theory rightly says that the Caspian basin has huge reserves of oil and gas and is strategic priority for US. But Caspian basin is landlocked and needs to be connected by pipelines to sea for further transportation. And there are just two ways to connect it - through Iran or through Afganistan and Pakistan. Both Iran and Afganistan are at the center of US politics now which again fits well into the conspiracy theory.
So after US had invaded Afganistan, they built the bases along the planned route of the pipeline.
Here are a bit more details of story http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis114.html


The US huge interest in Iran also fits into this pipeline conspiracy. There is a planned pipeline IPI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2...a_gas_pipeline
and Iran completed its part in 2011. Just in time when US got very angry with Iran...

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  #111  
Old 10.01.2012, 01:08
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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"These documents are remarkable because they show just how questionable the government's basis has been for detaining hundreds of people, in some cases indefinitely, at Guantanamo," said Hina Shamsi, director of the ACLU's National Security Project, in the statement. "The one-sided assessments are rife with uncorroborated evidence, information obtained through torture, speculation, errors and allegations that have been proven false.

"These documents are the fruit of the original sin by which the rule of law was scrapped when Guantanamo detainees were first rounded up," Shamsi said. "if the government had followed the law, it would have established a meaningful and prompt process to separate the innocent from those who are legally detainable."
Another prisoner was shipped to the base "because of his general knowledge of activities in the areas of Khowst and Kabul based as a result of his frequent travels through the region as a taxi driver".


The files also reveal that an al-Jazeera journalist was held at Guantánamo for six years, partly in order to be interrogated about the Arabic news network.


His dossier states that one of the reasons was "to provide information on … the al-Jazeera news network's training programme, telecommunications equipment, and newsgathering operations in Chechnya, Kosovo and Afghanistan, including the network's acquisition of a video of UBL [Osama bin Laden] and a subsequent interview with UBL".
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  #112  
Old 10.01.2012, 08:57
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Another terrorist plot uncovered

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-charge-ex...175436760.html

Perhaps there is a place in Guantanamo for him.
Or in a psychiatric institution like Breivik......no Guantanamo for Christian extremists? No Norwegian taxi drivers, farmers deported?
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  #113  
Old 10.01.2012, 09:07
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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charged with plotting a radical Islamic attack on crowded locations around Tampa, including nightclubs and a sheriff's office, with a car bomb, assault rifle and other explosives
...
was charged with one count of attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction.
So there were WMDs in Iraq. The naysayers were just using the wrong definition at the time.
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  #114  
Old 10.01.2012, 10:37
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Firstly, I find your post extremely patronising in what has been quite a decent debate with lots of different opinions and views, normally I would not reply to such a post but for entertainment value here goes.

So where do we start with this post, lets break it down shall we?
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The Northern Ireland conflict was simplified down to religion so that the press could generalise for the simpletons in the general public.
As far as I am aware the press were not around in the 16th century when the first battles broke out between Protestant English and the Irish Catholics. If you want to roll forward a few years to the 1900’s when the IRA were formed by basically pi$$ed off Irish Nationalist (Catholics) because the land was being taken from them by the Scots and the English (Protestants).

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There's a quite a few irish rebels who were protestant for example. It was more to do with different heritages and cultures.
There are ‘turncoats’ in every war.
So now that we have established that the NI troubles were based around religion we can move on, however feel free to start another thread on the history of NI and I will happily join the debate..

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For me the Problem with parts of the Islamic world is not the religion rather the culture. There are plenty of Muslims who live peacefully among us and who even fought for America in the middle east. America has tried to force it's culture upon foreign countries. They have not surprisingly taken kindly to this.
I agree with you, however the culture of the extremist is based upon religion. I have a quite a few ‘practising’ Muslim friends who hate the terrorist as much as the west. (I think I used the word radical therefore not directing this at all Muslims)

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I find since your defending the actions of the western governments I feel it is a legitimate question to ask where is the limit for you? How far should a country go to protect your ''safety'' ? I've listed some examples further up to get you going.
Now this is the funny and smart a$$ part from your good self. Firstly I have not defended any government, I have defended the military and the intelligence services. As for how far they should go, well I think you know and I know that there is no answer to that. All they can do is create public awareness and allow the military and intelligence services to do their work.

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Another example to add is Menezes. Is it alright for police to kill first, ask questions later anyone who looks like a terrorist?
As I have said many times in the thread during a war sadly mistakes are made and innocent people are killed due to this, the difference is when a terrorist kills an innocent person, it’s not a mistake.

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(By the way if he was naked he wouldn't have got shot)
Funny guy

Anyway, due to you being a really funny guy and me not being able to keep up with your good humour, I shall not be replying to any of your posts.
It was good while it lasted .
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  #115  
Old 10.01.2012, 12:05
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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So where do we start with this post, lets break it down shall we?
As far as I am aware the press were not around in the 16th century when the first battles broke out between Protestant English and the Irish Catholics. If you want to roll forward a few years to the 1900’s when the IRA were formed by basically pi$$ed off Irish Nationalist (Catholics) because the land was being taken from them by the Scots and the English (Protestants).
So land only got taking from the irish in the early 1900s?


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There are ‘turncoats’ in every war.
So now that we have established that the NI troubles were based around religion we can move on, however feel free to start another thread on the history of NI and I will happily join the debate..
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Silly me. It turns out the troubles were never about which state should rule over Northern Ireland rather they were trying to get the other side to convert. How stupid of me to miss the obvious persecution of the protestants in the Republic.......... Shame the French didn't get to Ireland first. It would've saved hundreds of years of conflict seeing as the Irish would've laid down the red carpet for them, offered the french their houses and would've decided to give up Gaelic for French. I mean how could they resist anything a fellow catholic says?

By the way are the muslims fighting in the American and British Army turncoats as well seeing it's all about religion?

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I agree with you, however the culture of the extremist is based upon religion. I have a quite a few ‘practising’ Muslim friends who hate the terrorist as much as the west. (I think I used the word radical therefore not directing this at all Muslims)
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It is difficult because some might not like to hear it but it is not all about politics or the US, it involves religion and when something involves religion sometimes there is no negotiation
hmmmm.........


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Now this is the funny and smart a$$ part from your good self. Firstly I have not defended any government, I have defended the military and the intelligence services.
....which are governed funnily enough by the government. The government sets the rules that the others operate under. What is the smart ass answer of my question? That people should use public transport naked? Why because saying that passengers need to show themselves naked at airports or let themselves get sexually abused is so much more sensible?

Well in this ''war against terrorism'' there's been one plane attack. I'm counting 9/11 as one. Of the top of my head there has been 4 train/Metro attacks (Madrid, London, Bombay, attempted attack in Germany). Going by the massive over reaction regarding air travel, there needs to be a massive increase in security measures regaring rail transport if you ever want to feel 'safe' using the train

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As for how far they should go, well I think you know and I know that there is no answer to that. All they can do is create public awareness and allow the military and intelligence services to do their work.
Yes I f****ing do know how far they can f****ing go. What a f****ing stupid answer from you. We have human rights for a reason.

Your suggesting to give the government a blank cheque to do whatever they want. You really are a simpleton if you don't know where that could lead to. I'll start off with no press freedom.

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Anyway, due to you being a really funny guy and me not being able to keep up with your good humour, I shall not be replying to any of your posts.

Like I care. Probably better for you anyway
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  #116  
Old 10.01.2012, 12:46
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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So land only got taking from the irish in the early 1900s?




Thanks for clearing that up for me. Silly me. It turns out the troubles were never about which state should rule over Northern Ireland rather they were trying to get the other side to convert. How stupid of me to miss the obvious persecution of the protestants in the Republic.......... Shame the French didn't get to Ireland first. It would've saved hundreds of years of conflict seeing as the Irish would've laid down the red carpet for them, offered the french their houses and would've decided to give up Gaelic for French. I mean how could they resist anything a fellow catholic says?

By the way are the muslims fighting in the American and British Army turncoats as well seeing it's all about religion?





hmmmm.........




....which are governed funnily enough by the government. The government sets the rules that the others operate under. What is the smart ass answer of my question? That people should use public transport naked? Why because saying that passengers need to show themselves naked at airports or let themselves get sexually abused is so much more sensible?

Well in this ''war against terrorism'' there's been one plane attack. I'm counting 9/11 as one. Of the top of my head there has been 4 train/Metro attacks (Madrid, London, Bombay, attempted attack in Germany). Going by the massive over reaction regarding air travel, there needs to be a massive increase in security measures regaring rail transport if you ever want to feel 'safe' using the train



Yes I f****ing do know how far they can f****ing go. What a f****ing stupid answer from you. We have human rights for a reason.

Your suggesting to give the government a blank cheque to do whatever they want. You really are a simpleton if you don't know where that could lead to. I'll start off with no press freedom.




Like I care. Probably better for you anyway
I know I shouldn't but I can not help myself.

You are nothing but a self opinionated keyboard 'hard man' who can not have an open debate without resorting to pathetic insults, but I guess that's fine behind the safety of a keyboard, there are losers like you on every forum, its part and parcel of the internet.

You choose not to read post correctly or twist them to suit what your opinion is but hey if that's what you need to do to grab the attention then jump right in.
So you crawl back under the stone you came from and refrain from the insults.
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  #117  
Old 10.01.2012, 13:07
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Well, no. That's exactly the problem: It is perfectly legal to capture enemy soldiers and keep them in a prison for the length of a war. You don't need any trial or judge for a POW.

Those Taleban were not criminals, but fighter. They run the country and fought against an invading army. So they should be POWs. But they did not meet the requirements to be considered soldiers according to international law and the Bush administration therefore did not want to grant them the POW status with its connected rights. That is the core of the problem.

So I can understand how the US got into the mess, but I really don't get how they cannot find a solution for it within a decade. After all is it a damn visible symbol that the US has double standards and in doubt bend the laws - simply cause they can. That this is more negative for the US as a country than having a couplpe of trials on its soil should get into the hardest tea party head... so I just don't get why the strong right of the republicans is blocking any possible solution. Just to show that Obama was not able to keep his word (without their support)?
"hose Taleban were not criminals, but fighter. They run the country and fought against an invading army. So they should be POWs. But they did not meet the requirements to be considered soldiers according to international law"

nice display of double-think
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  #118  
Old 10.01.2012, 13:08
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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You are nothing but a self opinionated keyboard 'hard man' who can not have an open debate without resorting to pathetic insults.
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a self opinionated keyboard 'hard man', losers like you on every forum,

So you crawl back under the stone you came from and refrain from the insults.
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too many people having the same sorry attitude as yourself
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You carry on with your self appointed administration on other threads thanks.
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smart a$$
Yeah it's not like you would ever insult anyone on a forum........

Anyone suggesting we give up our human rights is an idiot. I've no problem calling idiots, idiots.

And yeah I do have an opinion of my own. Should try it once.
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  #119  
Old 10.01.2012, 14:01
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Anyone suggesting we give up our human rights is an idiot. I've no problem calling idiots, idiots.
I presume this is what you are referring to.

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As for how far they should go, well I think you know and I know that there is no answer to that. .
Fifteen years ago if i was to have said to you, in a few years time you will not be allowed to take a bottle of water you bought in your local super market onto a plane, or you will be asked to take your shoes off going through security or you may need to go through and x-ray machine etc etc. I am pretty sure your answer would have been, 'no way that’s against our Human Rights'.
I think the governing bodies understand that yes they have to put in 'deterrents' (ye we know the water bottle restrictions means nothing) to improve public safety but they also have to ensure the quality of travel etc is not affected in a way that it breaches real human rights, not just carrying a water bottle, or having to take your shoes of or going through an X-Ray.
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  #120  
Old 10.01.2012, 14:13
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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