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  #121  
Old 10.01.2012, 15:34
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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I presume this is what you are referring to.
That's exactly the quote I was referring to.

15 years, had someone said you’re not allowed to bring unrestricted liquids on board and let your shoes get scanned, I would’ve said it’s a nuisance. If I’m reading you correctly, you also agree that the liquid restrictions don’t really help. Well I believe at least, that the regulation is so easy to get around that it isn’t a deterrent, rather it’s just a nuisance to normal passengers. If anything I feel it could be argued that it makes people complacent as they feel that because of these restrictions no liquid explosives can get through security. I don’t see how this can be true.

Getting back on topic to Guantanamo. If someone told me. We’re gonna kidnap you, hold you indefinitely and torture you then yeah I’ll be saying it’s against my human rights. For me it is unacceptable that a so called free democratic country uses these tactics.

With Guantanamo the USA have clearly gone too far and the international world needs to clearly say that this behavior will not be tolerated.

Now If one says these tactics are ok and the government should be able to use whatever measures necessary to keep us safe, than that really scares me. The military and intelligence clearly need to have boundries to their activities. I don’t think it takes a huge amount of imagination to see where it could lead to if they don't: Censorship of media, censorship of internet, locking up of dissidents, collection of everyone’s DNA and biometric data which can be checked at will, hacking at will of computers and phones.

I would rather take the risks that currently exist concerning terrorists rather watch our rights gradually erode.
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  #122  
Old 10.01.2012, 16:12
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Every other "colored" revolution of the former Soviet republics could be explained in terms of pipelines as well.
The main business of central Asia is oil and gas. Central asia is huge. So of course are there many pipeline projects. That theory is a bit too much illuminatus trilogy for me.

No pipeline is so unique or important enough to justify the costs for the war in Afghanistan. At all. The monthly cost was 6.7 Billion USD for one MONTH in 2010. http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...2-afghan_N.htm

That is a whole lot of oil. Or pipeline. You can build a kick-ass pipeline like nordstream with the costs of 5-6 weeks war in Afghanistan. With the costs for the wars so far could they instead build a pipeline all around the world. If you want only oil are there easier places to invade than Afghanistan.
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  #123  
Old 10.01.2012, 19:11
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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The main business of central Asia is oil and gas. Central asia is huge. So of course are there many pipeline projects. That theory is a bit too much illuminatus trilogy for me.

No pipeline is so unique or important enough to justify the costs for the war in Afghanistan. At all. The monthly cost was 6.7 Billion USD for one MONTH in 2010. http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...2-afghan_N.htm

That is a whole lot of oil. Or pipeline. You can build a kick-ass pipeline like nordstream with the costs of 5-6 weeks war in Afghanistan. With the costs for the wars so far could they instead build a pipeline all around the world. If you want only oil are there easier places to invade than Afghanistan.
Absolutely, this pipeline theory looks weird to me as well and I am not one of the believers. No pipeline is so unique and important enough to explain these wars, but then the question remains: what is? The whole situation with these wars is very strange and has no logical explanation. The official explanations look as strange as these conspiracy theories. These wars are not about fighting terrorism, spreading democracy, finding WMD, catching Osama bin Laden, etc. So people are looking for valid reasons and come up with odd things like this theory…
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  #124  
Old 10.01.2012, 20:58
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

Quite a few of the high publicity terrorist arrests in the US are frame jobs.

Basically government informer starts takes someone in his confidence, gives him the plans, gives him the materials, gives him money and then they arrest him. Generally, probably someone who would not have done anything without the FBI involvement.

Sure, there are terrorists out there
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  #125  
Old 11.01.2012, 09:54
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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The main business of central Asia is oil and gas. Central asia is huge. So of course are there many pipeline projects. That theory is a bit too much illuminatus trilogy for me.

No pipeline is so unique or important enough to justify the costs for the war in Afghanistan. At all. The monthly cost was 6.7 Billion USD for one MONTH in 2010. http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...2-afghan_N.htm

That is a whole lot of oil. Or pipeline. You can build a kick-ass pipeline like nordstream with the costs of 5-6 weeks war in Afghanistan. With the costs for the wars so far could they instead build a pipeline all around the world. If you want only oil are there easier places to invade than Afghanistan.
But on the other hand there is a part of this pipeline conspiracy theory that actually does make sense to me. When you say that no pipeline is so important to justify the cost of war in Afganistan -- well, then how important a pipeline could be? Look at the news. Just a threat of closing Strait of Hormuz brings the oil prices up. Any single incident at any important oil transportation point brings the world economy into shock. Does controlling the pipelines become equivalent to controlling the world economy? There is no other single component of it that would affect it so much. I don't think US really needs the actual pipelines or the actual oil and gas, but what makes a lot of sense in terms of importance is control of the pipelines, existing and future ones. If you think about the war in Afganistan in terms of importance of Caspian Basin to China and India then it doesn't look that unreasonable to me.

Last edited by leonie; 11.01.2012 at 11:15.
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  #126  
Old 11.01.2012, 11:16
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Quite a few of the high publicity terrorist arrests in the US are frame jobs.

Basically government informer starts takes someone in his confidence, gives him the plans, gives him the materials, gives him money and then they arrest him. Generally, probably someone who would not have done anything without the FBI involvement.

Sure, there are terrorists out there
Would be great to read some proof of this if you got any...
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  #127  
Old 11.01.2012, 13:01
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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If you think about the war in Afganistan in terms of importance of Caspian Basin to China and India then it doesn't look that unreasonable to me.
If I look at MY map, I can connect the Caspian basin nicely to China by crossing only through Kazakhstan. Alternatively only through Russia to connect it to ports in the black sea... and while we are at it could we with the costs of that war lay a pipeline all through the black sea and probably the entire Med on top.

Sorry, but the theory is really crap. And off topic.
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  #128  
Old 11.01.2012, 13:06
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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If I look at MY map, I can connect the Caspian basin nicely to China by crossing only through Kazakhstan. Alternatively only through Russia to connect it to ports in the black sea... and while we are at it could we with the costs of that war lay a pipeline all through the black sea and probably the entire Med on top.

Sorry, but the theory is really crap. And off topic.
Not really off topic.

Guantanamo is open because of the war in Afghanistan. There's a war in Afghanistan (still) because of (maybe) this pipeline.

Why not put a pipeline through Russia or China? The US wants greater control of petroleum for its own interests, not less.
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  #129  
Old 11.01.2012, 13:23
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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...and while we are at it could we with the costs of that war lay a pipeline all through the black sea and probably the entire Med on top.
There is nothing in the world that would withstand this argument but the war is still a reality, isn't it? The cost of that war is irrelevant.
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If I look at MY map, I can connect the Caspian basin nicely to China by crossing only through Kazakhstan. Alternatively only through Russia to connect it to ports in the black sea...
Well, as far as I understand -- the goal is to bring the pipeline to the sea ports and avoid Russia and Iran. Afganistan looks like one of few options.

Last edited by leonie; 11.01.2012 at 14:07.
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  #130  
Old 11.01.2012, 15:43
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Would be great to read some proof of this if you got any...

What do you mean by proof? It is in the press all the time how they "catch" these guys. The FBI would't even arrest the most recent guy in NYC due to the entrapment issues but Bloomberg sent in the NYPD anyhow.

I can post some articles. They find someone who may have shown some allegiance to terrorist ideas, an informant starts getting his trust, gives his money, gives him access to weapons, helps him plan and then they have a high profile arrest for someone plotting a terrorist attack. Most of the high profile arrests have followed this route. I can find you the article on Muslim cleric in Upstate NY.

This is not really a secret. It is how the FBI operates generally on a lot fronts.

Juries tend to convict on these charges because who wants to let a terrorist free.
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  #131  
Old 11.01.2012, 15:50
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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What do you mean by proof? It is in the press all the time how they "catch" these guys. The FBI would't even arrest the most recent guy in NYC due to the entrapment issues but Bloomberg sent in the NYPD anyhow.

I can post some articles. They find someone who may have shown some allegiance to terrorist ideas, an informant starts getting his trust, gives his money, gives him access to weapons, helps him plan and then they have a high profile arrest for someone plotting a terrorist attack. Most of the high profile arrests have followed this route. I can find you the article on Muslim cleric in Upstate NY.

This is not really a secret. It is how the FBI operates generally on a lot fronts.

Juries tend to convict on these charges because who wants to let a terrorist free.
About proof -- I was hoping you post a few articles. Is this really in the news all the time? I will look myself then.
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  #132  
Old 11.01.2012, 15:59
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

http://nymag.com/news/features/yassin-aref-2011-7/

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/11...-a-indeed.html

Here are a couple. Basically, they are sting operations for people who may have professed some "terrorist' ideas. They ultimately probably do something illegal, but it is very unlikely they would have ever been involved in a real plot.

Coverage gets splashy headlines, FBI gets praised for doing its jobs, Americans remain vigilant that something could happen, Homeland Security gets more money. And someone with radical ideas goes to jail.

We all win. or not.

Last edited by dakman; 11.01.2012 at 16:13.
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  #133  
Old 11.01.2012, 17:10
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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There is nothing in the world that would withstand this argument but the war is still a reality, isn't it? The cost of that war is irrelevant.
That is the point: If the war was in reality an economic one... the numbers would make sense. In this case they don't, so I simply do not buy any new world order theories. Or put differently: Do you really think the US can successfully control the various countries which are in the way of that pipeline? In an outright hostile environment with other regional (Turkey, Iran) as well as global forces (Russia, China) nearby all having their own agenda which is not supplying the oil to the US? And that in the long run? That's absurd, even for W. standards...

Sometimes the world really is simple: Bin Laden attacked the US, Americans and especially those conservatives that should reelect the president scream for his head, he is hiding in some mountains in some far away country with the Taleban who would protect their brother at all costs. The US is willing to pay "at all costs". The war is the simple result of populism. End of story.

I fully agree that the war in Iraq made absolutely no sense in this simple way of thinking, so there must be more to the story. (And there we do actually have a lot of oil and it is nicely situated next to the sea! Why build some pipeline elsewhere...)
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  #134  
Old 11.01.2012, 19:28
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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That is the point: If the war was in reality an economic one... the numbers would make sense. In this case they don't, so I simply do not buy any new world order theories. Or put differently: Do you really think the US can successfully control the various countries which are in the way of that pipeline? In an outright hostile environment with other regional (Turkey, Iran) as well as global forces (Russia, China) nearby all having their own agenda which is not supplying the oil to the US? And that in the long run? That's absurd, even for W. standards...
I do not want to promote this pipeline conspiracy too much but I think you miss the point completely. US has a lot of oil, and it has a lot of ways to get more oil. It can get much more oil than it can consume. This is not about US getting more oil. At least how I understand it -- this is more or less about being present and dominate the area where a lot of oil and gas are flowing. I don't know, maybe get to control a few parts of a few major pipelines in that area, maybe even shut down a few others. The various contries around that place are mostly those which cannot afford to stay without the oil flow for a day or they go hungry because they have no economy.
As I said before I don't have a shining clear picture of US interests in Afganistan in terms of pipelines but this theory doesn't seem completely absurd to me.

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Sometimes the world really is simple: Bin Laden attacked the US, Americans and especially those conservatives that should reelect the president scream for his head, he is hiding in some mountains in some far away country with the Taleban who would protect their brother at all costs. The US is willing to pay "at all costs". The war is the simple result of populism. End of story.

I fully agree that the war in Iraq made absolutely no sense in this simple way of thinking, so there must be more to the story. (And there we do actually have a lot of oil and it is nicely situated next to the sea! Why build some pipeline elsewhere...)
The problem is that it doesn't fit. In Iraq the oil is there but US just walks away. And in Afganistan Osama is dead but US is not leaving.
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  #135  
Old 11.01.2012, 19:48
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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I do not want to promote this pipeline conspiracy too much but I think you miss the point completely. US has a lot of oil, and it has a lot of ways to get more oil. It can get much more oil than it can consume.
It could... but the people won't allow it, as the means to extract the oil require spoiling wilderness or posing untold hazards to environmentally sensitive marine habitats. Americans aren't willing to risk short-term wins for long-term consequences.
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  #136  
Old 12.01.2012, 03:36
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Re: Guantanamo turns ten!

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Americans aren't willing to risk short-term wins for long-term consequences.
LOL. Is that the reason why they start wars without having a plan for the time after the invasion?
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