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  #101  
Old 13.01.2012, 16:13
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Never thought I had to write such thing but giving a decent sepulture to a human is showing the respect and preserving the dignity of that person. What you fail to see is that when afghans see how dead bodies are treated it tells them that US soldiers do not respect afghan's dignity. A lot of ancient greek, roman plays, corpuses is about sepulture rituals. it's not a trivial fact. All anthropologist will tell you it's a fundamental value in ALL human societies and cultures. How you treat dead bodies is far more important than how you treat alive people. The funeral ritual is one of the key attributes of civilization.[/QUOTE]
Then what would you call the Somali culture of dancing and waving bits of dead American soldiers about in Mogadischu in `93?

now you are copy pasting from wing-nutter textbook

funny this is the exact same argument i read over and over in many websites discussing the topic right now, you guys are all over the place
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  #102  
Old 13.01.2012, 16:18
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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@Mud @CorsebouTheReturn did you read crazygringo writing:
I'm struggling to see how getting pissed on is any more humiliating than getting killed.
Well, getting killed is a pretty big deal, about the biggest. So, I'm lost there.

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My post was also to explain why people make all the fuss about it compared to other atrocities. The treatment of dead bodies has a special meaning. That was the point of my post.
I understand that, but if my two brothers were with me and one got shot, and now I was faced with being indignant about the shooter pissing on his body or protecting my other brother, I know what I would choose. Respect for the dead is a big deal, and pissing on bodies is a big deal. The soldiers who did it, I'm sure, even if they are knuckle-dragging numbskulls know that- which is why they did it. And that's why they are going to have to pay for it.

But from the above, I think I could imagine- once I got brother #2 squirreled away safely- killing and pissing on the killer of brother #1. Do you get that?
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  #103  
Old 13.01.2012, 16:36
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

99% of the military are professional soldiers who want to but would never dream of doing this as they have discipline.
Lack of discipline causes lack of professionalism (which this is) which can turn local Afghan's against them (hearts and minds tactic) and potentially cause the Taliban to target the troops in this area more intensely putting the lives of their fellow soldiers at even more risk.

Terrorist leave behind their dead, the military pick them up and bury them in the correct manner (in most cases). The reason for this is down to professionalism and respect for the dead.

As I said earlier out of 130,000 troops you are bound to get a handful of idiots.
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  #104  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:05
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Oh yeah, I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of civilians on the ground that died as a direct result are just thrilled.
Where do you get hundreds of thousands? Another poster made the same claim of hundreds of thousands and I refuted it as a claim based totally on statistical extrapolation and without any correlation to what actually occurred in Iraq.

And what about the billions of people around the world that benefit from having access to fuel oil to provide them with all the services I mentioned? I guess they don't matter as much as the statistically extrapolated hundreds of thousands...
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  #105  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:09
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Where do you get hundreds of thousands? Another poster made the same claim of hundreds of thousands and I refuted it as a claim based totally on statistical extrapolation and without any correlation to what actually occurred in Iraq.

And what about the billions of people around the world that benefit from having access to fuel oil to provide them with all the services I mentioned? I guess they don't matter as much as the statistically extrapolated hundreds of thousands...
So you are willing to put the price of an innocent person on a barrel of oil.

Out of interest where does your price limit hit it's ceiling

1 life/barrel
10 lives
100 lives
1000 lives
>1000 lives
Your wife
Your children
Your parents
Your siblings

Just asking... because really the point that was being made which you've decided to dismiss is that you think it was justified for the "greater good" or are you suggesting that actually there were only enemy combatants killed as a result of the US' "holy crusade"?
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  #106  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:12
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Oh p-lease. We know all that and whilst I agree that the USA has been the planet's leader in policing all the bad guys and is due kudos where kudos is due, it also has been extremely heavy-handed and interfering in as many other conflicts as history tells.
If being heavy-handed in policing all the bad guys is the worst with which one could indict America, then I'll take that.

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Those are 4 moronic Marines who should not be wearing the stars and stripes on their shoulder or be a part of America's finest.
Absolutely correct. They will be identified, court-marshaled and removed from service, possibly even imprisoned for a short time. This is as it should be. They did something wrong and immoral, by American standards, and will be punished, by American standards. The behavior of these few individuals should not serve to reflect on America as a whole.

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The USA is never going to win new friends until the moral ground is also won.
Our current enemies do not want to be our friends, and we won't make them our friends no matter what we do. All we can do is deter them from persisting in attacking us.
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  #107  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:14
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Question - are you running for office? Republican I guess ...
Republicans are just Sociali...ahem...Democrat-Lite. I'd probably lean more towards Libertarianism with a Conservative streak, if I had to pick.
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  #108  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:14
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Where do you get hundreds of thousands? Another poster made the same claim of hundreds of thousands and I refuted it as a claim based totally on statistical extrapolation and without any correlation to what actually occurred in Iraq.

And what about the billions of people around the world that benefit from having access to fuel oil to provide them with all the services I mentioned? I guess they don't matter as much as the statistically extrapolated hundreds of thousands...
what??? really, are you serious? the fact the west can drive around in new cars and listen to music on the latest ipod justifies it invading any country it pleases?

please, don't give me that crap about relying on oil, there are alternatives, especially for us in the rich west, we chose not to take them for one reason only, greed. oil is cheap (except in the cost of lives it seems)

Last edited by bigblue2; 13.01.2012 at 17:36.
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  #109  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:19
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Republicans are just Sociali...ahem...Democrat-Lite. I'd probably lean more towards Libertarianism with a Conservative streak, if I had to pick.

your thread is here

What the heck are Americans doing here that irks the Swiss so?
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  #110  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:20
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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So you are willing to put the price of an innocent person on a barrel of oil.
Just about everything we use has at least some of its roots planted in the misery of others. Maybe not outright killing with bombs and guns, but still. This is a slippery philosophical slope to start down.. (and OT )
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  #111  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:25
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Where do you get hundreds of thousands? Another poster made the same claim of hundreds of thousands and I refuted it as a claim based totally on statistical extrapolation and without any correlation to what actually occurred in Iraq.
Source 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project Their current number is 114'000. This is widely consider the most accurate number and one of two studies which is peer reviewed.

The other is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_...War_casualties , also peer reviewed and their number is 600'000.

I don't know which number is more acceptable to you.
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And what about the billions of people around the world that benefit from having access to fuel oil to provide them with all the services I mentioned?
I'll set aside you completely ignoring that the US lied to the international community about WMDs and started a war on false pretenses, causing at least 110'000 confirmed deaths, which is a pretty vile thing to ignore. Let's assume the lying was done out of the goodness of their hearts to make sure all of us get the oil we need for years to come. Now I'd like some proof on your part for what you're suggesting now: that having Saddam Hussein in power would have been a long-term liability to the world's oil supply and Iraq's contribution to the world's oil supply was large enough to put the livelihood of "billions" in danger.

Give me some proof that the situation was urgent enough for at least one hundred thousand human beings to lose their lives.
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I guess they don't matter as much as the statistically extrapolated hundreds of thousands...
In the world of people of who have a semblance of empathy for their fellow man, they really really don't.
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  #112  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:30
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Just about everything we use has at least some of its roots planted in the misery of others. Maybe not outright killing with bombs and guns, but still. This is a slippery philosophical slope to start down..
Agree.

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(and OT )
Don't agree.

Why OT?

1) the price of a barrel is very relevant to this discussion
2) he dismissed the numbers of innocent dead saying they are inflated - so what is his limit?
3) the morals of war and the justification of war and the subsequent actions are all linked IMO

Surely this is part of what is acceptable or not.

Consider this argument:

It is acceptable to attack another country under false pretext to obtain access to its oil reserves and/or because we perceive their government to be a threat to our interests in the area and/or because it is the "war on terror".

These people are not enemy combatants, neither are they civilians. They fall outside any "normal" protocols. How do I know this, because my government - the people that order me around - condone GITMO.

That means I can do what the f**k I want.

Morals out the window? Just a little. For jar heads who have a fairly simple view of things it doesn't take a great leap of thinking to get to this point.
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  #113  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:37
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Never thought I had to write such thing but giving a decent sepulture to a human is showing the respect and preserving the dignity of that person. What you fail to see is that when afghans see how dead bodies are treated it tells them that US soldiers do not respect afghan's dignity. A lot of ancient greek, roman plays, corpuses is about sepulture rituals. it's not a trivial fact. All anthropologist will tell you it's a fundamental value in ALL human societies and cultures. How you treat dead bodies is far more important than how you treat alive people. The funeral ritual is one of the key attributes of civilization.
this seems to be a relatively damning statement on "ALL human societies". I guess I would have thought that killing another person would be more harmful to that other person's dignity then just about anything else you could do.
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  #114  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:37
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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Why OT?
The thread topic is about the desecration of dead enemy bodies. Not about justification of and reasons for war. But discussion has morphed and so has the topic I suppose. I did give you a wink- here's another, and a smile.
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  #115  
Old 13.01.2012, 17:45
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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The thread topic is about the desecration of dead enemy bodies. Not about justification of and reasons for war. But discussion has morphed and so has the topic I suppose. I did give you a wink- here's another, and a smile.
Here you go then
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  #116  
Old 13.01.2012, 18:12
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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this seems to be a relatively damning statement on "ALL human societies". I guess I would have thought that killing another person would be more harmful to that other person's dignity then just about anything else you could do.
I try to stay on-topic. We are discussing about how dead bodies are treated in war situations. Killing of combattants/soldiers in war situations I think everyone agree that's part of the risk/"game"...even the talibans agree on that.
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  #117  
Old 13.01.2012, 18:40
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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I try to stay on-topic. We are discussing about how dead bodies are treated in war situations. Killing of combattants/soldiers in war situations I think everyone agree that's part of the risk/"game"...even the talibans agree on that.
you're totally right, the Taliban is universally revered for its respect for human dignity.



I still think that the people who are most upset over this are commingling their anger over the deaths and the events giving rise to the deaths with anger over desecration of a dead person they didn't know personally.
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  #118  
Old 13.01.2012, 18:54
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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you're totally right, the Taliban is universally revered for its respect for human dignity.



I still think that the people who are most upset over this are commingling their anger over the deaths and the events giving rise to the deaths with anger over desecration of a dead person they didn't know personally.
where the hell did I say or write that taliban respect human dignity!!!!
Are you trolling here or what? the crazy part of your handle seems to reflect quite well your personality.
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  #119  
Old 13.01.2012, 19:13
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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If being heavy-handed in policing all the bad guys is the worst with which one could indict America, then I'll take that.



Absolutely correct. They will be identified, court-marshaled and removed from service, possibly even imprisoned for a short time. This is as it should be. They did something wrong and immoral, by American standards, and will be punished, by American standards. The behavior of these few individuals should not serve to reflect on America as a whole.



Our current enemies do not want to be our friends, and we won't make them our friends no matter what we do. All we can do is deter them from persisting in attacking us.

Our current enemies do not want to be our friends: WRONG! (they were your best friends just 20 yrs ago, during cold war)

and we won't make them our friends no matter what we do: WRONG! (you sure can if you leave their countries to them. remember iraqi's being the biggest enemy 10 yrs ago? now they really like you and you like them too)

All we can do is deter them from persisting in attacking us: WRONG! (you cant deter them as long as you remain enemies, cant you see already?)
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Old 13.01.2012, 19:49
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Re: Afghanistan: US marines urinate on dead bodies

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what??? really, are you serious? the fact the west can drive around in new cars and listen to music on the latest ipod justifies it invading any country it pleases?
I did not say nor imply that. I did say that oil is necessary for our current infrastructure. I've named numerous necessary benefits to the world as a whole that are derived directly or indirectly from oil.

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please, don't give me that crap about relying on oil, there are alternatives, especially for us in the rich west, we chose not to take them for one reason only, greed. oil is cheap (except in the cost of lives it seems)
Name one alternative that can completely and reliably replace oil today.

Or in a week?

Or a month?

Or in one year?

Yes, there are other alternative energy technologies, but none are as readily available and inexpensive as oil, which means that until these new technologies are actually viable and economically competitive with oil, then the reality is that oil is a necessity, and ensuring a safe and stable supply of oil is a moral cause.

Oh, and objectively define greed, please.
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