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  #41  
Old 09.02.2012, 01:30
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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I think mothers should be paid more than bankers and teachers. They have the potential to add to the economy, research and development, and the future of.. well.. basically everything really.
Turns out that about 50% of the breed are useless punks and a burden to us hard working bankers.
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  #42  
Old 09.02.2012, 09:50
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

If you are successful in a field, maybe a portion of your wages should be paid as a bonus to the teacher(s) who got you there.

If you become a captain of industry, because Mr Henderson in Geography inspired you to do better, maybe that's when he should get his bonus. I dunno, maybe if you are earning over 500k, then you get a 0.5% levy on your tax that goes towards this.

This will motivate teachers to put the hours in to really help kids (not saying that they don't already, but I think we all probably had a good number of apathetic teachers in our time) and they'd get back a bonus that they richly deserve.
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  #43  
Old 09.02.2012, 10:35
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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If you are successful in a field, maybe a portion of your wages should be paid as a bonus to the teacher(s) who got you there.

If you become a captain of industry, because Mr Henderson in Geography inspired you to do better, maybe that's when he should get his bonus. I dunno, maybe if you are earning over 500k, then you get a 0.5% levy on your tax that goes towards this.

This will motivate teachers to put the hours in to really help kids (not saying that they don't already, but I think we all probably had a good number of apathetic teachers in our time) and they'd get back a bonus that they richly deserve.
Since tax rates are progressive, there is already a 'levy' on people earning 500k, in the UK last year banks had to pay an extra 50% tax on large bonus's. They still paid them because the benefit exceeded the cost by a large margin.
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  #44  
Old 09.02.2012, 10:46
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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Since tax rates are progressive, there is already a 'levy' on people earning 500k, in the UK last year banks had to pay an extra 50% tax on large bonus's. They still paid them because the benefit exceeded the cost by a large margin.
Not debating that, I think the tax rate in the UK now is 50% on anything over £150,000 (or is it £250,000), either way, it leaves quite a large scope between there and £500,000 where people are doing pretty damn well. A levy of 0.5% (which would work out to £2,500 on a £500,000 salary!) is not that painful on that salary.

I am actually against taxing people on high salaries progressively more, for the reason you outline above, but I think this small blip on super-high salaries wouldn't be the worst thing. I guess most of us here wouldn't miss 2500chf over the course of a year that much, and I would guess that most of us aren't earning anywhere near 500k, so someone earning 2 or 3 times what we earn would miss it even less.
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  #45  
Old 09.02.2012, 10:47
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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If you are successful in a field, maybe a portion of your wages should be paid as a bonus to the teacher(s) who got you there.
No way. I got where I am despite some of my teachers, not because of them.

If anybody deserves my bonus, it's my parents. My father, in particular.
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  #46  
Old 09.02.2012, 10:55
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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No way. I got where I am despite some of my teachers, not because of them.

If anybody deserves my bonus, it's my parents. My father, in particular.
Completely agree. My teachers we utter rubbish. I was the quiet one in class thus i was pretty much ignored throughout school. I don't remember one teacher paying me any attention.

I am only where i am today because my parents gave me a great education themselves and instilled their hard work ethics in me. To this day my father regrets not being able to afford to send us to a better school and mentions it every Christmas.
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  #47  
Old 09.02.2012, 10:55
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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No way. I got where I am despite some of my teachers, not because of them.

If anybody deserves my bonus, it's my parents. My father, in particular.
And I'm sure the fact that he sees you doing well for yourself is bonus enough for him.

Your educators have no such bond with you though, it is just their job to teach you whether they like you or not.
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  #48  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:04
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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Here goes for a bit of renewed passion.

Bankers have again stated today that bank bonuses are absolutely essential to ensure the right candidates for the job.

Fair dos I say - but I'd much rather have the best candidates for the job in teaching, nursing, doctoring, policing, caring, etc, etc. Why should bankers be the only ones needing huge fat bonuses to do their job to the best of their ability?
because they can afford to bribe the politicians more than teachers / nurses / firefighters can.
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  #49  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:09
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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A good teacher adds a lot of benefit to society. But to put it into context, a 5 million bonus is probably calculated from making a profit of 50-100 million. You can't compare the two in terms of contributions to the economy. Apples and oranges.
horsesh1t... anyone who is clever enough to earn 50-100 million because of his/her intelligence/skills will be doing it for themselves... not letting the bank keep 90% of it.

there are only two reasons why a trader is happy to take a 5 mil bonus from the 50 he made for his employer....

a) he needs to be able to gamble billions to earn the 50 mil and obviously only large banks have that kind of capital

b) the employer provides commercial access and political protection that an individual trader cannot hope to have
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  #50  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:13
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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This will motivate teachers to put the hours in to really help kids (not saying that they don't already, but I think we all probably had a good number of apathetic teachers in our time) and they'd get back a bonus that they richly deserve.
Problem is, it doesn't work.

And long-term success is seldom attributable to a single cause. Which one of the 100+ teachers who taught me as I was growing up deserves the bonus? Or were they all equally good?

And if we incentivize teachers like this, won't they simply get greedy and steer all of their students towards high-paying jobs? Where will we find the next generation of teachers, nurses, and policemen?

And what if the teacher fails his students -- should there be a claw-back clause in the contract (as there are in many banking contracts) that allows the poorer students to get some compensation as a result of being landed with crummy jobs because they can't read and write at a high-school level?

Sorry, but Caviarchips had it right. You can argue about whether teachers are paid enough -- but that's a different argument from whether they should be incentivized by having a performance-related element of their pay. I'm not sure that there are many teachers out there who would sign up for a deal where half of their pay was variable and performance-based, even if it was 50% more than what they were getting paid today.
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Old 09.02.2012, 11:14
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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horsesh1t... anyone who is clever enough to earn 50-100 million because of his/her intelligence/skills will be doing it for themselves... not letting the bank keep 90% of it.

there are only two reasons why a trader is happy to take a 5 mil bonus from the 50 he made for his employer....

a) he needs to be able to gamble billions to earn the 50 mil and obviously only large banks have that kind of capital

b) the employer provides commercial access and political protection that an individual trader cannot hope to have
Did you not just rebutt your own point?

No (very few) traders have anywhere near enough money to be able to risk to make $50-100m for themselves, so they 'settle' for doing it risk free and taking a good salary and a great bonus.

Also, and I think more importantly, if they did it on their own, nobody would hear when they ding the bell.
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  #52  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:17
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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Problem is, it doesn't work.

And long-term success is seldom attributable to a single cause. Which one of the 100+ teachers who taught me as I was growing up deserves the bonus? Or were they all equally good?

And if we incentivize teachers like this, won't they simply get greedy and steer all of their students towards high-paying jobs? Where will we find the next generation of teachers, nurses, and policemen?

Sorry, but Caviarchips had it right. You can argue about whether teachesr are paid enough -- but that's a different argument from whether they should be incentivized by having a performance-related element of their pay. I'm not sure that there are many teachers out there who would sign up for a deal where half of their pay was variable and performance-based, even if it was 50% more than what they were getting paid today.
I think you are deliberately misquoting me. I do hope not though.

Their salary would be unaffected. Their bonus (of which they currently have none) would be affected. They do not lose out in any way.

I suppose that you would nominate the educators who you feel have most helped you out, so although you may be a bit miffed at losing out on a bit of salary, you have the satisfaction of deciding what is done with it. If you thought all of your teachers were $hit, then you get to donate it to the local donkey sanctuary/cub scouts/something you think was more appropriate.

Lovely stuff.
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  #53  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:27
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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Their salary would be unaffected. Their bonus (of which they currently have none) would be affected. They do not lose out in any way.
You're still confusing total compensation with performance-related pay.

Total compensation = base salary + performance-related pay

If you are suggesting that teachers in future get a bonus on top of their current salary, you are effectively suggesting that their overall compensation should be increased. This is noble -- and I agree that we underpay teachers.

But then the question becomes whether we should simply raise their base salary, or whether we should introduce some performance-related element (eg, a bonus). And the link I provided above shows that giving teachers performance-related pay doesn't actually affect performance. So rather than try to build a convoluted way of trying to return money back to teachers, we should simply pay them more.
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  #54  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:32
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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And I'm sure the fact that he sees you doing well for yourself is bonus enough for him.

Your educators have no such bond with you though, it is just their job to teach you whether they like you or not.
Excuse my bitterness but it's surprising I even decided to continue my education beyond high school. I was brutally bullied and sexually harassed - in class and out. Teachers in class either ignored the nasty/lewd comments or encouraged them. I had one who enjoyed calling me out to answer questions and he would deliberately and in a derogatory way mispronounce my name 3-5 times in a row, to which the class laughed and he grinned all chuffed with himself.

If my teachers had spent more time teaching me and less time encouraging and condoning bullying, maybe then I'd have a different stance. My parents paid heaps of money to put me in private school and it was a nightmare. None of those teachers should ever see a single penny of my bonus.
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  #55  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:44
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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If my teachers had spent more time teaching me and less time encouraging and condoning bullying, maybe then I'd have a different stance. My parents paid heaps of money to put me in private school and it was a nightmare. None of those teachers should ever see a single penny of my bonus.
And just to look at the other side of the coin, I had some absolutely superb teachers along the way to whom I owe a great deal of my success. So each year when my old schools write to me asking for a donation, I write a cheque. Some of this money does go into teacher salaries, some goes into improving the school, and some goes towards providing scholarships so that others can have access to the same great education I did.

Other schools I attended, where the teachers made less of a contribution to my learning and success, don't get cheques each year.

So good teaching is being recognized and rewarded without forcing the system.
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  #56  
Old 09.02.2012, 11:50
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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So each year when my old schools write to me asking for a donation, I write a cheque. Some of this money does go into teacher salaries, some goes into improving the school, and some goes towards providing scholarships so that others can have access to the same great education I did.

Other schools I attended, where the teachers made less of a contribution to my learning and success, don't get cheques each year.

So good teaching is being recognized and rewarded without forcing the system.
That's all fine and dandy but the debate here is around giving a teacher a bonus that's linked to a specific student's performance. And this suggests that a successful person owes some or all of this success to his/her teachers. Of course there are fab teachers like the ones you describe. This makes it an easy case. But my point is that for the awful ones, why should a student who is successful pay them anything?
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Old 09.02.2012, 12:01
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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That's all fine and dandy but the debate here is around giving a teacher a bonus that's linked to a specific student's performance. And this suggests that a successful person owes some or all of this success to his/her teachers. Of course there are fab teachers like the ones you describe. This makes it an easy case. But my point is that for the awful ones, why should a student who is successful pay them anything?
I think we're violently in agreement. My point was -- I reward those teachers/schools who made a big impact in my education. I don't reward those teachers/schools that did, at best, a mediocre job of educating me when I attended them.
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Old 09.02.2012, 12:10
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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You're still confusing total compensation with performance-related pay.

Total compensation = base salary + performance-related pay

If you are suggesting that teachers in future get a bonus on top of their current salary, you are effectively suggesting that their overall compensation should be increased. This is noble -- and I agree that we underpay teachers.

But then the question becomes whether we should simply raise their base salary, or whether we should introduce some performance-related element (eg, a bonus). And the link I provided above shows that giving teachers performance-related pay doesn't actually affect performance. So rather than try to build a convoluted way of trying to return money back to teachers, we should simply pay them more.
I am suggesting, for the purposes of a debate, that their total compensation COULD be increased, but their base salary would not be decreased. So, some teachers may get an increase in total compensation...I think I understand the concept well enough

For the purposes of this debate, I am suggesting that we should find a reward for teachers who produce the successful leaders of the future. I'm not really even suggesting performance related bonuses per se - many teachers teach well because they love teaching and wouldn't be more motivated to teach better by money, conversely, some teachers are in it as it what they fell into due to circumstance etc, and maybe they would be more motivated by this, maybe not.

Either way, teachers who go the extra mile would get a nice little extra for their efforts, and to be honest, those are the teachers we should be rewarding.
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Old 09.02.2012, 12:12
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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That's all fine and dandy but the debate here is around giving a teacher a bonus that's linked to a specific student's performance. And this suggests that a successful person owes some or all of this success to his/her teachers. Of course there are fab teachers like the ones you describe. This makes it an easy case. But my point is that for the awful ones, why should a student who is successful pay them anything?
And as I suggested earlier, they wouldn't get anything, the former student could instead have it donated to something else worthwhile, but perhaps still school/college/uni related.
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  #60  
Old 09.02.2012, 12:31
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Re: Bank bonuses and the best candidates

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I think we're violently in agreement. My point was -- I reward those teachers/schools who made a big impact in my education. I don't reward those teachers/schools that did, at best, a mediocre job of educating me when I attended them.
I dig! ;p Where I didn't follow is that I don't see what you're doing as a "bonus." I like the sentiment that you contribute money by choice. But it's not a case of a direct salary raise for the teacher is it? The money hits up many places, which consequently I actually like as well (since I believe the overall school hierarchy and infrastructure play a role in how well a teacher does his/her job).

I'm mostly still speaking to the original comment on student success/bonus directly going toward a teacher. This isn't fair and logical when the teacher is a nasty crow.
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