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  #41  
Old 12.03.2012, 22:53
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I don`t mean photos of the dead bodies,i mean photos of the victims when they were alive,just as the American media would show their owndead,eg the wedding,the birthday,the happy face at a party etc.

I don`t mean put any of the bloody horror on the tv.

I mean let`s see the whole thing treated as if it were American children murdered in their beds by a non American.Let`s see the American propaganda machine use all their skill to deliver the pain of death felt be the families of the victims.

I think this would do some good.

I think too many people have been dehumanised for the sake of American ego and pride.

I think much of America is wonderful,but a nation that is all too often convinced that they can do no wrong really needs some help.
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Old 12.03.2012, 23:11
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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  #43  
Old 12.03.2012, 23:23
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Beg your pardon Cannut,my computer has been playing up and i`ve tended to go back to links later (in the hope it works).Yes,i know the death penalty has been mentioned,we`ll see.I mean up until relatively recently (not sure how recent),if an Englishman saw a Scotsaman walking within the old city walls of York with a cross-bow,by law you could slain him on the spot.

I am actually against the death penalty,i only mentioned it to point out that if America is to really show its respect for the victims and the Afgan people,then by their own set of rules he`ll have to be executed.

I`ll leave it there.

Goodnight.
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  #44  
Old 12.03.2012, 23:27
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Beg your pardon Cannut,my computer has been playing up and i`ve tended to go back to links later (in the hope it works).Yes,i know the death penalty has been mentioned,we`ll see.I mean up until relatively recently (not sure how recent),if an Englishman saw a Scotsaman walking within the old city walls of York with a cross-bow,by law you could slain him on the spot.

I am actually against the death penalty,i only mentioned it to point out that if America is to really show its respect for the victims and the Afgan people,then by their own set of rules he`ll have to be executed.

I`ll leave it there.

Goodnight.
And I always was under the impression "Due process "is English law
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  #45  
Old 12.03.2012, 23:27
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I don`t mean photos of the dead bodies,i mean photos of the victims when they were alive,just as the American media would show their owndead,eg the wedding,the birthday,the happy face at a party etc.

I don`t mean put any of the bloody horror on the tv.

I mean let`s see the whole thing treated as if it were American children murdered in their beds by a non American.Let`s see the American propaganda machine use all their skill to deliver the pain of death felt be the families of the victims.

I think this would do some good.

I think too many people have been dehumanised for the sake of American ego and pride.

I think much of America is wonderful,but a nation that is all too often convinced that they can do no wrong really needs some help.
As an American with a UK background married to an EU man and having lived outside of the US for half of my life...let me say that, yes, much of America is a bit 'oblivious' for lack of a better word but, at the same time, I think Europeans make much too easy sport punishing us for crimes that could so easily be yours if you had been in the same position at this time to field a force to deal with the problems in the Middle East. Let's face it, if the ME didn't have oil, nobody would be reading these stories. Oil is important, even in little CH and for EU countries to gripe about the wars over there, well, ....we all like oil.

In spite of the appeal of the maudlin, no, none of the US news outlets tend to run background bits unless it's something truly fetching, like a pregnant woman who had her husband die 1 day before coming home. It's rare and, for the most part, we tend to step lightly over the stories of the dead.

The soldier will likely get the death penalty and, yet, it doesn't give solace to the families nor does it explain why he went bonkers. I grieve for both sides as I think being a soldier over there must be as close to hell as it gets. Since CH doesn't have any oil at all....maybe there should be a little less rush to judgement as without oil, which lets be honest, is what the forces are there for, your land rovers wouldn't be as cheap or moving as much.
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  #46  
Old 12.03.2012, 23:45
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

while OP is once again sitting there with his popcorn (by the way misr, this missionary-lamenting attidtude of yours is why I deserted your arabic expressions forum at one point) I wish americans on this forum would stop feeling like they have to defend themselves.
quite a few other europeans nations are fighting in there to make sure they get their share of the cake.
as a convinced pacifist it makes me angry to think how much money my government has diverted from better use (worsening the crisis) into another hopeless war. the italians, germans, british etc. did of their own free will, they certainly weren't forced to join in by the americans.

so will someone stop hypocritically blaming americans. we didn't mind them helping us get rid of nazi and fascists in WW II did we?!
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  #47  
Old 12.03.2012, 23:56
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Beg your pardon Cannut,my computer has been playing up and i`ve tended to go back to links later (in the hope it works).Yes,i know the death penalty has been mentioned,we`ll see.I mean up until relatively recently (not sure how recent),if an Englishman saw a Scotsaman walking within the old city walls of York with a cross-bow,by law you could slain him on the spot.

I am actually against the death penalty,i only mentioned it to point out that if America is to really show its respect for the victims and the Afgan people,then by their own set of rules he`ll have to be executed.

I`ll leave it there.

Goodnight.
You know I have never said this before, but I feel I should here, your last comment about execution makes me want to vomit. Why? The only way America can redeem itself to you is if our nation commits itself to a policy that the majority does not believe it? What do you think we are Texas? I assume you are a GW Bush fan then. I am not in favor of the death sentence, nor is my state. If this guy is truly mentally inept, then putting him to death does not meet what a humane society does with their mentally disabled.

Your ideal of "Kill em'all" might work if you are a bloody thirsty republican, but since the USA is full of a lot of different ideas, it won't work. And sorry to offend Republicans, not all of them agree with the death penalty. But again, we have not heard the facts. Presumed guilt before a trial is truly un American, and I hope the death penalty in all 50 will one day too be as well.

It is amusing that you say personally you are against the death penalty, but think we, people that aren't you, should be in favor of it to make things right. I think that makes you the worst kind of hypocrite. You can't even man up to what you want us to believe in.

In other words, I think this makes you a Troll. Or something I rather say to you in person. Seriously, how is there any logic in what you just said?
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  #48  
Old 13.03.2012, 00:25
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...-afghans-video

Hope one day will come with an end to this frequent inhuman massacres.

This brings to mind some thought of old acquaintances of mine who, when we went to help liberate Qatar from Iraq oh so many years ago (ahh, an idealistic young Republican I was at that time), said that we should just leave em alone to kill each other off.

Of course, I remember from then, as from more recent times, that when hostilities flare up and frightening things happen, many times the question is asked "When will the US go help?"

So, we (and other allied countries) send our folks to go help. Not only do we send military, but we also send food and medicine, doctors and engineers, all of whom are in danger, NOT all of whom are trained or equipped to fight back if or when they find themselves in danger.

Meanwhile, it's 20yrs after that time I recall first noticing, because some of my friends were heading into danger. One of the guys I worked with, was part time with us but full time Navy Corpsman with experience as field medic in a Marine Corps platoon - so he went.

Between then and now, there is enough starvation and need for medicine nearer to the "Middle East" that we get nightly advertisements calling for us to send money so they can bring more medicine and food and doctors and engineers to help build hospitals and establish clean drinking methods and effective farming and... and... and...

Why don't the people who are nearby, who have so much wealth of their own to constantly and constantly and constantly FIGHT EACH OTHER go and help their neighbors? Why do they ask for our money and our blood and sweat and tears?



Next time you want to ask why don't we show photos of little Afghan boys having birthday parties, or pregnant Afghan mothers in the US - instead, ask yourself, why don't they show pictures of starving children from other areas of the world to those little boys and Afghan mothers? Why don't they show them?
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  #49  
Old 13.03.2012, 00:39
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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You know I have never said this before, but I feel I should here, your last comment about execution makes me want to vomit. Why? The only way America can redeem itself to you is if our nation commits itself to a policy that the majority does not believe it? What do you think we are Texas? I assume you are a GW Bush fan then. I am not in favor of the death sentence, nor is my state. If this guy is truly mentally inept, then putting him to death does not meet what a humane society does with their mentally disabled.

Your ideal of "Kill em'all" might work if you are a bloody thirsty republican, but since the USA is full of a lot of different ideas, it won't work. And sorry to offend Republicans, not all of them agree with the death penalty. But again, we have not heard the facts. Presumed guilt before a trial is truly un American, and I hope the death penalty in all 50 will one day too be as well.

It is amusing that you say personally you are against the death penalty, but think we, people that aren't you, should be in favor of it to make things right. I think that makes you the worst kind of hypocrite. You can't even man up to what you want us to believe in.

In other words, I think this makes you a Troll. Or something I rather say to you in person. Seriously, how is there any logic in what you just said?

I do realise Americas a big place and you are not fans of the right wing party,some of you are fans of the other party,the less right wing party (i do not support either,i swap channels the second the boring race to the white house comes on).Also of course many Americans are against the death penalty,but,it is still there is`nt it.

So, America has the death penalty and this crime is a definate death penalty crime.I pointed it out because your presdient spoke of shock and the respect for the Afgan people America has etc.Well,if he means it then i assume the death penalty will be done.

If this were a case of 16 Americans murdered in America by an Afgan you would`nt hand him over to the Afgan courts would you.No,i don`t think so.

So,as not to lose even more credibility you have to be seen to pass the maximum sentence allowed for murder.Execution.The American way.


This is the lay of the land and nothing to do with my own personnal point of view on capital punishment,which like you i am against.If it was left to me he would not be executed,but lets face it,it would take a hell of alot of explaining to the Afgan people.

I hope that`s clearer.
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  #50  
Old 13.03.2012, 00:48
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I do realise Americas a big place and you are not fans of the right wing party,some of you are fans of the other party,the less right wing party (i do not support either,i swap channels the second the boring race to the white house comes on).Also of course many Americans are against the death penalty,but,it is still there is`nt it.

So, America has the death penalty and this crime is a definate death penalty crime.I pointed it out because your presdient spoke of shock and the respect for the Afgan people America has etc.Well,if he means it then i assume the death penalty will be done.

If this were a case of 16 Americans murdered in America by an Afgan you would`nt hand him over to the Afgan courts would you.No,i don`t think so.

So,as not to lose even more credibility you have to be seen to pass the maximum sentence allowed for murder.Execution.The American way.


This is the lay of the land and nothing to do with my own personnal point of view on capital punishment,which like you i am against.If it was left to me he would not be executed,but lets face it,it would take a hell of alot of explaining to the Afgan people.

I hope that`s clearer.
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  #51  
Old 13.03.2012, 00:49
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I do realise Americas a big place and you are not fans of the right wing party,some of you are fans of the other party,the less right wing party (i do not support either,i swap channels the second the boring race to the white house comes on).Also of course many Americans are against the death penalty,but,it is still there is`nt it.

So, America has the death penalty and this crime is a definate death penalty crime.I pointed it out because your presdient spoke of shock and the respect for the Afgan people America has etc.Well,if he means it then i assume the death penalty will be done.

If this were a case of 16 Americans murdered in America by an Afgan you would`nt hand him over to the Afgan courts would you.No,i don`t think so.

So,as not to lose even more credibility you have to be seen to pass the maximum sentence allowed for murder.Execution.The American way.


This is the lay of the land and nothing to do with my own personnal point of view on capital punishment,which like you i am against.If it was left to me he would not be executed,but lets face it,it would take a hell of alot of explaining to the Afgan people.

I hope that`s clearer.
I wish I knew how to select text by text for quoting...
Why would you assume the death penalty is in order from our President? I mean really? Because he killed many people? And why is suffering in prison in eternity, with the much looked forward to forced sodomy, better then a swift death, in the least painful way I can imagine? There is no max pass for murder that equates to execution, Please read up on our laws. It doesn't work that way.
One of those 9/11 fools is in prison on a life term, clearly passing the 16 mark, still we don't go around executing people to make foreigners happy, it's just not kosher.
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  #52  
Old 13.03.2012, 00:57
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I do realise Americas a big place and you are not fans of the right wing party,some of you are fans of the other party,the less right wing party (i do not support either,i swap channels the second the boring race to the white house comes on).Also of course many Americans are against the death penalty,but,it is still there is`nt it.

So, America has the death penalty and this crime is a definate death penalty crime.I pointed it out because your presdient spoke of shock and the respect for the Afgan people America has etc.Well,if he means it then i assume the death penalty will be done.

If this were a case of 16 Americans murdered in America by an Afgan you would`nt hand him over to the Afgan courts would you.No,i don`t think so.

So,as not to lose even more credibility you have to be seen to pass the maximum sentence allowed for murder.Execution.The American way.


This is the lay of the land and nothing to do with my own personnal point of view on capital punishment,which like you i am against.If it was left to me he would not be executed,but lets face it,it would take a hell of alot of explaining to the Afgan people.

I hope that`s clearer.
Maybe you should ask first grader what Due Process means
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  #53  
Old 13.03.2012, 01:00
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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This brings to mind some thought of old acquaintances of mine who, when we went to help liberate Qatar from Iraq oh so many years ago (ahh, an idealistic young Republican I was at that time), said that we should just leave em alone to kill each other off.

Of course, I remember from then, as from more recent times, that when hostilities flare up and frightening things happen, many times the question is asked "When will the US go help?"

So, we (and other allied countries) send our folks to go help. Not only do we send military, but we also send food and medicine, doctors and engineers, all of whom are in danger, NOT all of whom are trained or equipped to fight back if or when they find themselves in danger.

Meanwhile, it's 20yrs after that time I recall first noticing, because some of my friends were heading into danger. One of the guys I worked with, was part time with us but full time Navy Corpsman with experience as field medic in a Marine Corps platoon - so he went.

Between then and now, there is enough starvation and need for medicine nearer to the "Middle East" that we get nightly advertisements calling for us to send money so they can bring more medicine and food and doctors and engineers to help build hospitals and establish clean drinking methods and effective farming and... and... and...

Why don't the people who are nearby, who have so much wealth of their own to constantly and constantly and constantly FIGHT EACH OTHER go and help their neighbors? Why do they ask for our money and our blood and sweat and tears?



Next time you want to ask why don't we show photos of little Afghan boys having birthday parties, or pregnant Afghan mothers in the US - instead, ask yourself, why don't they show pictures of starving children from other areas of the world to those little boys and Afghan mothers? Why don't they show them?
Well "why" indeed Peg A.

America has given much for world.Eg,i think America gives by far the most charity money for Africa .I know this and more and perhaps i should of made this point clearer when i began posting on this thread.You may be surprised to hear i have American mates,no really!

You are right,the world is one almighty, right royal cock up!

The UK,the USA, Africa,the Middle east etc etc.


I just think the pain of death these people are experiencing (or any people in such circumstance) could be a stark lesson for the world and the American media (all medias) could play a massive role.

I think some good from these tragedies could come this way.

Make the reporting more human and less statistical.
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  #54  
Old 13.03.2012, 01:05
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Well "why" indeed Peg A.

America has given much for world.Eg,i think America gives by far the most charity money for Africa .I know this and more and perhaps i should of made this point clearer when i began posting on this thread.You may be surprised to hear i have American mates,no really!

You are right,the world is one almighty, right royal cock up!

The UK,the USA, Africa,the Middle east etc etc.


I just think the pain of death these people are experiencing (or any people in such circumstance) could be a stark lesson for the world and the American media (all medias) could play a massive role.

I think some good from these tragedies could come this way.

Make the reporting more human and less statistical.
You are saying all this, but, of course I have to ask, have you watched any US news reporting on the issue as of yet?
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Old 13.03.2012, 01:11
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I just think the pain of death these people are experiencing (or any people in such circumstance) could be a stark lesson for the world and the American media (all medias) could play a massive role.

I think some good from these tragedies could come this way.

Make the reporting more human and less statistical.
In the 44yrs since my father went to Vietnam, the US has had to actually reign in what is shown by media, because of the vitriol spewed upon returning soldiers back then.

Despite what you think you know, Americans know quite well the human aspect of those killed elsewhere. Perhaps we choose not to dwell on it for our own sanity though as otherwise, the answer likely would be that we simply let them kill each other off over there.

Of course, if we did that, then how much would we all pay for everything involving petroleum, most especially countries without direct access to oil deposits themselves?
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  #56  
Old 13.03.2012, 01:19
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Doubtful, since women are regarded as...less than the men in Afghanistan. Not to diminish the crime as it is awful, but I think to describe it in terms of American media vs. others is to diminish the human element. I think anyone with a brain can both be horrified at what drove this soldier (nationality irrelevant) to shoot civilians, particularly women and children, as a tragedy. To nationalize it and blame the country is to reduce the crime to an act of war, which it is not. My heart goes out to both the soldier and to the families as this is an awful thing no matter which 'side' you're on.
your heart goes to the soldier? you mean the murderer?
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Old 13.03.2012, 01:37
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I mean let`s see the whole thing treated as if it were American children murdered in their beds by a non American.Let`s see the American propaganda machine use all their skill to deliver the pain of death felt be the families of the victims.

(...)

If this were a case of 16 Americans murdered in America by an Afgan you would`nt hand him over to the Afgan courts would you.No,i don`t think so.
You have a point there, but: Can you name me some countries in which "foreign victims abroad" regularly cause as much attention in the media as "one-of-us victims anywhere" or "any victim back home"? In which media reports aren't tailored to the "domestic market"? In which military law allows extradition of own troops abroad to local authorities? If not, then don't let your posts sound like you would point out some habits which are particularly American and would be seen as almost bizarre everywhere else.
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Old 13.03.2012, 01:37
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I wish I knew how to select text by text for quoting...
Why would you assume the death penalty is in order from our President? I mean really? Because he killed many people? And why is suffering in prison in eternity, with the much looked forward to forced sodomy, better then a swift death, in the least painful way I can imagine? There is no max pass for murder that equates to execution, Please read up on our laws. It doesn't work that way.
One of those 9/11 fools is in prison on a life term, clearly passing the 16 mark, still we don't go around executing people to make foreigners happy, it's just not kosher.
It`s getting late Confloozed,i`ve explained why i think (to keep any credibility) America will may feel obliged to execute this `man`.

Please,American justice is like that in the UK,one law for the rich and another for the poor.I`m not too interested in the theory or someone quoting the Magna Carter,Jimmy bloody Carter or one Amenment or another.The reality is if you`ve got lots of money you may get away with murder,or perhaps run for president.

I don`t suppose America does execute people to appease other nations,but if there is oil involved that might change things of course.I think alot of black Americans may of been executed to keep a few white middle class christian Americans happy though.
Oh and you do sadly execute foriegners.

If it makes you feel any better the British `invented`concentration camps,we have murdered Irish people,we did not do anything like enough in the great famine (going back abit further).Was the American/British bombing of Dresden a war crime?Slave trade,another Anglo American partnership.There was relatively recently an island where the British chucked the paople off so the USA could have a military base there and shame on me i can`t even remember the peoples name but the crime is a national disgrace for Great Britain!Britain has committed many crimes.
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Old 13.03.2012, 01:38
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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your heart goes to the soldier? you mean the murderer?
You're reacting as if this was Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy, not a soldier who was in a wartime situation for some time...

This was (most likely) a man under pressure who had something go wrong inside - not (likely) some psychopath who set out to kill women and children for fun as part of a daily routine.
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Old 13.03.2012, 01:46
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Recognising that the pressures of war are a huge causitive factor does not absolve the soldier of his guilt, nor is it excusing the crime. The man is 100% responsible for his actions, which were triggered by massive psychological pressure he couldn't handle. Or possibly he's just an evil guy who deserves to be tortured to death over a few weeks. Take your pick. Of course, you'd never succumb to the pressure, because you're morally superior.

I'm amazed it doesn't happen more often.
It does not happen more often, nice. But this incident and this person is the famous tip of the iceberg. There may be quite many who are almost deranged but do not become murderous. I might suggest that the US armed forces increase and improve psychiatrist care for their soldiers now and there, and not in a few years when some of them may become problem people at home. What this man may deserve is not my question, but rather how the problems in question can be tackled.
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